6L7 vari-mu compressor design

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vintagedreams

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Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
14
Location
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I am somewhat new to tube DIY stuff, but I have built my own solid state stuff and repaired tons of tube gear. Recently I dove into the Radiotron Designer's handbook...what fun! Anyways, I am working on designing a compressor based on 6L7s / 1620s, like the old Western Electric 1126s. Anyone have any experience with these? I am thinking I will use a 6H6 for the control voltage circuit, and 6J5s or 6SN7s for the output section.

How does the sound of the 6L7-based compressors compare to the Fairchild / Sta-level / triode based vari-mu stuff? I am under the assumption that using the 6L7s will cause there to be less issues with control voltage leakage?? I am considering paralleling the 6L7s to reduce noise and get more output. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks!
--Tim
 
take a look at the federal am864u schematic. May be some food for thought.

Its horrifingly basic but sounds stellar. Does in fact sound basic, but Id rather use one of those than an La2 at this point.

dave
 
take a look at the federal am864u schematic. May be some food for thought.
yeah that is a good suggestion ...

the am864 uses a pir of 6sk7's in push pull and and a 6sq7 and a 6sn7 ...
there is a rectifier tube too (5y3) but you might want to look into a solid state rectifier . i have heard this will yeild better results ...
but i'm not the expert here ...
ther is a lot of info on these federal units..
hope this was helpful
later
ts
 
I am assuming the output transformer is a gapped one for the am864u. Where would I get one of those?

Thanks,
Tamas
 
in the am864, you are looking at dc current through a center tap. it will cancel out, because the current is flowing in opposite directions, but ONLY if the DCR of both sides of the center tap are the same. if that winding is wound all at once, and tapped in the middle, naturally the second half turns will be longer than the first half turns, and so the DCR will be higher, and there will be a current imbalance, which can saturate the core. so, any old center tapped transformer may work to some degree, but best results will only be achieved with a "balanced" tapped winding.

ed
 
Thanks, everyone! That's a nice, simple design. I hadn't considered the 6SK7 before. I think a regulated power supply would be a good idea.

Is there a disadvantage to pulling the control signal from only one side of the circuit? I'm definatley going to whip this up this weekend and see how it sounds!

-tim
 
> How does the sound of the 6L7-based compressors compare to the Fairchild / Sta-level / triode based vari-mu stuff?

Probably depends MUCH more on the transformers and the time constants than the tubes.

> I am under the assumption that using the 6L7s will cause there to be less issues with control voltage leakage??

Don't see why.

> I am considering paralleling the 6L7s to reduce noise and get more output.

About 6dB increase in total dynamic range for each doubling of tubes. If you run a post-amp, like about everything except the Fairchild, then output of the vari-gain stage is typically not a big deal. And noise is not a big deal except for very wide dynamic range program input. So mostly the gain from paralleling is not worth the cost. If you don't use a post-amp, a la Fairchild, output level becomes THE design factor, and even a pair of 6L6 (yes, they could be used as vari-gain) will not give pro-like output level while doing deep gain reduction. The Fairchild uses a lot of pretty sturdy tubes, and still will not give the huge output levels demanded in broadcast limiters (which also drove long transmitter lines).

> current through a center tap. it will cancel out, because the current is flowing in opposite directions, but ONLY if the DCR of both sides of the center tap are the same.

For pentodes, DCR-match is not critical; for triodes it has little effect.

But you WILL have trouble with current balance. Say you pick or trim two tubes (or tube-halves) to equal idle current. Now start taking the grids negative to reduce gain. No two tubes (not even halves of the same bottle) match exactly over all grid voltages. Say idle at 10mA each, take the grid voltage down a bit, one tube will be say 5mA and the other 4.5mA (it could be worse than 10%). That's a 0.5mA unbalance. Not a problem for a 5K 25 watt output transformer, but could be bad news on a 20K 0.5 watt core.

> plate resistors and caps to keep away DC from the transformer

Nope. You can easily trim-out the static idle unbalance. You can't easily(*) trim or select away the unbalance shifts as you drive the grids negative and current from 10mA toward 0.1mA.

And there is NO way for the system to know the difference between a 0.5mA balance-shift and a 0.5mA signal transient. Since typical limiter time-constants are equivalent to the rise of a musical bass note (2mS attack is like the start of a 83Hz tone) we can't filter it away. We have to balance the tubes all the way down the current range, and accept that it can never be perfect.

Assuming the attack time can be as low as 5mS, and that you want frequency response flat to below 30Hz, while the coupling caps will block DC unbalance they will not block unbalance during limiter attack. You will have thump and you can have excessive unbalanced current which will eat-up your bass overload margin.

(*)Programming a complementary bias trim is difficult because of the high impedance of most tube limiter time networks. Also the currents could be 5mA:4.5Ma and then 1mA:1.2mA... not one tube consistently higher than the other. I suppose these days we could program a DSP to test the tubes after power-up and warm-up, memorize their curves, and calculate the right grid voltage for each tube for any desired GR. But if we go this far, we are well along the path to much more complicated limiting algorithms (a la CBS patent) and even distortion-cancellation. Pretty soon the tubes are just decorative heaters, the funky elegance of the tube limiter lost.

> I think a regulated power supply would be a good idea.

For a simple sidechain and broadcast-standard limiting level, you need to regulate, only the vari-gain stage (and only the G2 of pentodes). The output level rises until the gain is reduced enough. The amount of grid voltage needed for any given gain reduction is a function of plate/G2 voltage. 12AU7 working at 100V on the plates will give a lot of gain reduction at -7V on the grids; if run at 300V on the plates it needs -15 or -20V on the grids for similar gain reduction. Or simply: 1dB output level accuracy needs 10% supply regulation. In systems that assume fairly steady wall-power, or that don't need consistent limiting level, unregulated supplies worked fine. +/-20% line variation is +/-2dB output limiting level variation: if you just don't want speech to splatt, that's plenty good. If the wall wandered more than 20%, the tube heaters would be unhappy. If the limiter feeds a loudspeaker amp on the same wall power, the limiter "should" track wall-power wanderings, because the power-amp max output will be shifting too. Finally if you set the limiter by-ear every time you use it, exact limiting level consistency is pointless unless you also have large wall-power variations during a take or mix. (And if you do, that may be more a problem for other gear than for the limiter.)

If you try to run the vari-gain stage on a low voltage dropped from a high voltage through a resistor, you get a different type of limiter. As vari-gain stage gain drops, stage current drops, voltage drop in the resistor is decreased, supply voltage to the stage rises. This works against you, but is not necessarily bad. Many-many tube limiters work with high-value plate resistors and the plates soar from 60V at idle to 200V at -6dB GR to 230V in deep GR. This softens the knee but can be somewhat compensated by increased gain to the rectifier and increased rectifier threshold voltage.
 
Thanks for the great advice. I really appreciate it. I just got some 6L7s, a 3U case, sockets, switches, pots, etc, etc. Hopefully I have a power transformer around that will work out for me. I'm excited! I'll post some pics and stuff when I am done.

Tim
 
Thanks PRR. Good stuff to know.
Would paralleling help with the mismatching of sections by averageing, or just make things worse?

Dave,
take a look at the federal am864u schematic.
I'd love to. :wink: Is there one online?
 
http://www.one-electron.com/filing_cab.html

One Electron hosts a link page to many sites. The AM is under the military
section. Check out the other stuff, MANY items of interest. It appears some links are broken including the AM go straight to Waltzing Bear for that.

http://waltzingbear.com/Schematics/Schematics.html

Whoa he's posted MORE stuff for everybody to go see...... :thumb:
 
I built a single ended varimu...loosely based on the RCA tube manuals expander
It uses a 6L7 and triode connected 6L6 output. GR was taken off input and run to at 12at7 with a cheap hammond interstage and that got -DC using a small bridge and fed to the control grid of 6L7 via a pot.
Attack and release were determined by ears and alligator clip wires
THIS COMP WORKS GREAT ON GUITAR AMPS AND SNARE DRUM. INPUTS ARE SEPARATE XLRs with mic input and line level xformers with dpdt selector switch. Output is thru a small Stancor PA xformer with a 600 ohm tap...Kind of a unique but useful device...
 
Thx...pulling the comp and separate power supply from the rack would be a pain in the a**
But here is what I can get conveniently. Meter on left is a Weston Vu and the meter on the right is a matching 'compression' meter I found for $ 5.00 on a shelf at a small ham radio store...score!!!
Mic input TX is pulled from a Proco Di box and line in TX is from I can't remember...comp rolls off at 50hz. I was going to change coupling & bypass caps to get better lows, but all the GRwiring makes this difficult...It works well ....pots are slotted Allen Bradleys. I am building an. AM864 to use for vocals in mixdown. Power supply is in separate rack unit and uses a 5y3 and DC heaters...180vdc to audio unit.
 

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I meant to say the downward rollof starts around 50hz...you CAN use this on fender bass...I have better things to use for bass. It works on vocals but I want better for that...thus the current project am864 build. I love some of the mid 60s hit singer recordings...so liquid and open sounding..captivating and huge...warm & inviting...I am nearly there :) ?
 
Separate power supply - cool!
Thing looks badass.
I like the meters, big and easy to read.
Hmm, your build has me itching, but gotta clear other projects first.
 
Thx...I am trying to eek out build time for my 864 project.
Lawn mowing berry bush trimming and work week all get out of control the Saturday & Sunday I fire up the soldering iron....painful yes???
 

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