Old ribbon mic threads, anyone have them archived?
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Marik
Well-known member
I think Rafafred has it. Rafa! wake up! Where are you? Paging Rafael :!:
On the other hand, why to repeat old mistakes? Let's do something new. It would be helpful if you could post pics of your design, so with "collective brain" we might define it.
On the other hand, why to repeat old mistakes? Let's do something new. It would be helpful if you could post pics of your design, so with "collective brain" we might define it.
rafafredd
Well-known member
Yes. I have it all. I have almost all the old place good threads on my HD.
I´ve just emailed some of you all I had about ribbons. I don´t remenber who it was, because I´ve deleted the PM.
If someone could do what Nicholas did with the DIY mic capsule thread (cleaning the OLD LOOK, maintainig all the info, you know...) it would be really nice.
Those are the threads I have from the old place reguarding ribbon mics:
Any magnetics experts out there - Plus an interesting idea
RCA ribbon mic restore-repair
help with ribon mics
Anyway, Marik is the man for ribbon DIY.
Ask him anything you want to know and I´m sure he will do the best to help.
Hey Maik, don´t you have a URL about ribbon construction? Please, post the link.
I´ve just emailed some of you all I had about ribbons. I don´t remenber who it was, because I´ve deleted the PM.
If someone could do what Nicholas did with the DIY mic capsule thread (cleaning the OLD LOOK, maintainig all the info, you know...) it would be really nice.
Those are the threads I have from the old place reguarding ribbon mics:
Any magnetics experts out there - Plus an interesting idea
RCA ribbon mic restore-repair
help with ribon mics
Anyway, Marik is the man for ribbon DIY.
Ask him anything you want to know and I´m sure he will do the best to help.
Hey Maik, don´t you have a URL about ribbon construction? Please, post the link.
rafafredd
Well-known member
Also, for DIY ribbon mics, make to you´ve checked:
http://make_a_ribbon_mic.tripod.com/
http://www.lkmusic.co.nz/ribbonfix.htm
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~macinc/news9.htm
http://make_a_ribbon_mic.tripod.com/
http://www.lkmusic.co.nz/ribbonfix.htm
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~macinc/news9.htm
Rob Flinn
Well-known member
Rafa
I you have all the good stuff saved from RO maybe you can help me. One of the threads on the Langevin AM16 had the Connector World supply part number for the connector for the AM16. Please could you look throgh your archives for me & see if you have it ?
I you have all the good stuff saved from RO maybe you can help me. One of the threads on the Langevin AM16 had the Connector World supply part number for the connector for the AM16. Please could you look throgh your archives for me & see if you have it ?
Marik
Well-known member
[quote author="rafafredd"]
Hey Maik, don´t you have a URL about ribbon construction? Please, post the link.[/quote]
I don't think it would be beneficial, as it was my very first one, and now I am just laughing at it, seeing how much things I screwed up there. So I just don't want other folks to laugh at me, or repeat same mistakes
Since then I made about a dozen of different configurtions and shapes. Some were better, some--worse. Still working...
I looked at first link long time ago and found a lot of mistakes there. I am not sure if he corrected them since then. Also, the test frequency response looks little optimistic. He compares an omni with Fig8 and doesn't specify the distance to the speakers--bass response looks like has lotsa proximity. Also, theoretically, with his dimentions, the ribbon cannot be THAT flat up to 20Khz. It should start rolling off at about 8-10Khz.
Second link... That's funny. Just last night I emailed to Larry with some suggestions and today he replied back. Looks like he is a nice folk. I will let him know about this place.
Steve Spicer's site is actually very good, with nice physics description and I would actually recommend his type of design--very simple, elegant, and should be a very good performer.
And don't forget to take D.Royer tours:
http://www.royerlabs.com/Royertour/Tour_R-121p0.html
http://www.royerlabs.com/Royertour/Tour_SFp0.html
Hey Maik, don´t you have a URL about ribbon construction? Please, post the link.[/quote]
I don't think it would be beneficial, as it was my very first one, and now I am just laughing at it, seeing how much things I screwed up there. So I just don't want other folks to laugh at me, or repeat same mistakes
Since then I made about a dozen of different configurtions and shapes. Some were better, some--worse. Still working...
I looked at first link long time ago and found a lot of mistakes there. I am not sure if he corrected them since then. Also, the test frequency response looks little optimistic. He compares an omni with Fig8 and doesn't specify the distance to the speakers--bass response looks like has lotsa proximity. Also, theoretically, with his dimentions, the ribbon cannot be THAT flat up to 20Khz. It should start rolling off at about 8-10Khz.
Second link... That's funny. Just last night I emailed to Larry with some suggestions and today he replied back. Looks like he is a nice folk. I will let him know about this place.
Steve Spicer's site is actually very good, with nice physics description and I would actually recommend his type of design--very simple, elegant, and should be a very good performer.
And don't forget to take D.Royer tours:
http://www.royerlabs.com/Royertour/Tour_R-121p0.html
http://www.royerlabs.com/Royertour/Tour_SFp0.html
rafafredd
Well-known member
Sorry Rob, no AM16 connector info on my archives...
rafafredd
Well-known member
Would love to hear what went wrong and why. And also where and why did you get it right...
Marik
Well-known member
[quote author="rafafredd"]
Would love to hear what went wrong and why. And also where and why did you get it right...[/quote]
Huh, anything and everything!
Ribbon material, ribbon size, thikness, amount of ribbon tension, corrugator and its pitch, acoustical dimentions, shape and size of magnets, steady frame, how to mount magnets, magnetic path return, tolerances. The thing is that all these things are very tightly connected and also, it is often hard to decide where and which compromise to make. Also, it is often impossible to put things into math (often ribbon just doesn't work as theory predicts), and I have to do a lot of very tedious experiments and find things empirically. It would take pages long to describe all these relationships. It would be much easier if you asked more specific questions.
Would love to hear what went wrong and why. And also where and why did you get it right...[/quote]
Huh, anything and everything!
Ribbon material, ribbon size, thikness, amount of ribbon tension, corrugator and its pitch, acoustical dimentions, shape and size of magnets, steady frame, how to mount magnets, magnetic path return, tolerances. The thing is that all these things are very tightly connected and also, it is often hard to decide where and which compromise to make. Also, it is often impossible to put things into math (often ribbon just doesn't work as theory predicts), and I have to do a lot of very tedious experiments and find things empirically. It would take pages long to describe all these relationships. It would be much easier if you asked more specific questions.
rafafredd
Well-known member
At least it gives us an idea about what we are getting into when trying to DIY ribbon mics.
Frightening. :shock:
Frightening. :shock:
Marik
Well-known member
Also, I would recommend some books on ribbons I was able to find:
"RCA Microphones" by Harry Olson--very scarce, burried in math, but excellent.
"Ribbon microphones" by Gayford
There are good chapters on ribbons in following books:
"Elements of Acoustical Engineering" by Harry Olson.
"Microphone Engineering Handbook" by Gayford--includes detailed explanation of Coles 4038 and some info on Beyer's.
"Electroacoustics" by Gayford--can be found for cheaper, but if you have the above book, don't worry.
"Microphones" by Robertson--excellent book--a must, if you can find it.
"Microphones" BBC training manual--very expensive and scarce. Don't worry if you have Robertson.
Check your local or University libraries. You may find some of them there.
Also, these sites have a lot of info and closeups of RCA ribbons:
http://www.k-bay106.com/doc.htm
http://www.coutant.org/contents.html
"RCA Microphones" by Harry Olson--very scarce, burried in math, but excellent.
"Ribbon microphones" by Gayford
There are good chapters on ribbons in following books:
"Elements of Acoustical Engineering" by Harry Olson.
"Microphone Engineering Handbook" by Gayford--includes detailed explanation of Coles 4038 and some info on Beyer's.
"Electroacoustics" by Gayford--can be found for cheaper, but if you have the above book, don't worry.
"Microphones" by Robertson--excellent book--a must, if you can find it.
"Microphones" BBC training manual--very expensive and scarce. Don't worry if you have Robertson.
Check your local or University libraries. You may find some of them there.
Also, these sites have a lot of info and closeups of RCA ribbons:
http://www.k-bay106.com/doc.htm
http://www.coutant.org/contents.html
Marik
Well-known member
[quote author="rafafredd"]At least it gives us an idea about what we are getting into when trying to DIY ribbon mics.
Frightening. :shock:[/quote]
...but rewarding :thumb:
Frightening. :shock:[/quote]
...but rewarding :thumb:
Thank for all the links!
Hope it is a slow day at work tomorrow.
Rafafredd could you email me some of the archives? I?m at similinfu?at?earthlink.net. Marik I hear your point about not making the same mistakes again, but without that info I will probably do nothing but those mistakes, and I think my next idea was inspired by your posts anyway. There was some good information in those an you had built several the last time I remember you posting.
I can not post a picture yet, as I got no camera (good because this thing is UGLY). I?ll try and draw a sketch and post it at work tomorrow.
I am using ?lustrous metal leaf for surface gilding?. This was my second attempt . The first was built on to a plastic power outlet plate had about 1/8? between the magnets. I was trying to cut down the amount of excess plastic and broke the ribbon. This my second attempt was a little less successful, it was the same setup, but the ribbon was I think to small, and left to much space between it and the magnets. I also think it is to loose (visibly sagging).
The first attempt (with tighter gaps) was more successful, could get a very small signal (very small), this time it is barely audible. Even with quite a lot of gain.
The magnets are 2?x½? by 1/8? neodymium, with the north and south lying on the large flat faces (the flux running through the 1/8? width). The magnets are set up facing each other north to south with a small 1/8? piece of plexiglasss with notches cut in it keeping the magnets apart and holding the ribbon between them.
Taping the table the element was resting on got a very big result, but little from the speaking into it (again very little, I know they have low outputs). So I though maybe the magnets were acting as sort of a baffle to the ribbon, not letting much sound get to it(with ¼? sticking out in front of and behind it). So I think my next plan is to try it with the magnets on their sides (sort of what I think your pictures looked like Marik). This will, I assume, have a less dense magnetic field for the ribbon to move through, but maybe will work.
Oh and I am using a cinemag 1:27(1:28?) transformer.
I?ll see if I can get a sketch up tomorrow, but it is really about a basic as you could get.
Thanks for all the info to read.
Hope it is a slow day at work tomorrow.
Rafafredd could you email me some of the archives? I?m at similinfu?at?earthlink.net. Marik I hear your point about not making the same mistakes again, but without that info I will probably do nothing but those mistakes, and I think my next idea was inspired by your posts anyway. There was some good information in those an you had built several the last time I remember you posting.
I can not post a picture yet, as I got no camera (good because this thing is UGLY). I?ll try and draw a sketch and post it at work tomorrow.
I am using ?lustrous metal leaf for surface gilding?. This was my second attempt . The first was built on to a plastic power outlet plate had about 1/8? between the magnets. I was trying to cut down the amount of excess plastic and broke the ribbon. This my second attempt was a little less successful, it was the same setup, but the ribbon was I think to small, and left to much space between it and the magnets. I also think it is to loose (visibly sagging).
The first attempt (with tighter gaps) was more successful, could get a very small signal (very small), this time it is barely audible. Even with quite a lot of gain.
The magnets are 2?x½? by 1/8? neodymium, with the north and south lying on the large flat faces (the flux running through the 1/8? width). The magnets are set up facing each other north to south with a small 1/8? piece of plexiglasss with notches cut in it keeping the magnets apart and holding the ribbon between them.
Taping the table the element was resting on got a very big result, but little from the speaking into it (again very little, I know they have low outputs). So I though maybe the magnets were acting as sort of a baffle to the ribbon, not letting much sound get to it(with ¼? sticking out in front of and behind it). So I think my next plan is to try it with the magnets on their sides (sort of what I think your pictures looked like Marik). This will, I assume, have a less dense magnetic field for the ribbon to move through, but maybe will work.
Oh and I am using a cinemag 1:27(1:28?) transformer.
I?ll see if I can get a sketch up tomorrow, but it is really about a basic as you could get.
Thanks for all the info to read.
SilverhammerNZ
Well-known member
Hi folks,
Marik let me know of this forum so thought I would pop in.
I have the site www.lkmusic.co.nz/ribbonfix.htm
I started that site when I first discovered aluminium leaf worked well in ribbon mics, it is however most difficult to work with. I am currently experimenting with thicker material.
I see my site more as a collecting place for ribbon mic info, hopefully useful for those experimenters out there.
I do have some interesting info that was posted on Google Groups some time ago, I have this now in printed form. I also have an early BBC Monograph on the technical aspects of the BBC PGS ribbon mic, this was the forerunner of the Coles 4038. This article is in pdf format and is around 1 Meg. I can email this to anyone who might be interested, although I will add there are a couple of pages missing but the info that is there is very interesting.
All best
Larry
Marik let me know of this forum so thought I would pop in.
I have the site www.lkmusic.co.nz/ribbonfix.htm
I started that site when I first discovered aluminium leaf worked well in ribbon mics, it is however most difficult to work with. I am currently experimenting with thicker material.
I see my site more as a collecting place for ribbon mic info, hopefully useful for those experimenters out there.
I do have some interesting info that was posted on Google Groups some time ago, I have this now in printed form. I also have an early BBC Monograph on the technical aspects of the BBC PGS ribbon mic, this was the forerunner of the Coles 4038. This article is in pdf format and is around 1 Meg. I can email this to anyone who might be interested, although I will add there are a couple of pages missing but the info that is there is very interesting.
All best
Larry
rafafredd
Well-known member
My archive about ribbon mics is large. can you take large atachments on this emailbox?
Marik
Well-known member
It is hard to envision your setup. It seems you have a very healthy magnets and should get more output. The sketch would be very helpfull, so we could have it in front of eyes.
What's this material, and what is the thickenss?
1/8" seems little too close, try 1/4". The clearance between ribbon and magnets should be much tighter, otherwise you lose bass. I make about 0.01". Also, the ribbon should not be sagging, once again--you lose bass. Too tight will sound honky. With time you will develope 'feel' for when it is just right.
Looks kinda low ratio for a ribbon. I am using Lundahl LL2911 1:37--excellent iron--$60 from Kevin Carter.
What's this material, and what is the thickenss?
1/8" seems little too close, try 1/4". The clearance between ribbon and magnets should be much tighter, otherwise you lose bass. I make about 0.01". Also, the ribbon should not be sagging, once again--you lose bass. Too tight will sound honky. With time you will develope 'feel' for when it is just right.
Looks kinda low ratio for a ribbon. I am using Lundahl LL2911 1:37--excellent iron--$60 from Kevin Carter.
Marik
Well-known member
[quote author="SilverhammerNZ"]
I also have an early BBC Monograph on the technical aspects of the BBC PGS ribbon mic, this was the forerunner of the Coles 4038. This article is in pdf format and is around 1 Meg. I can email this to anyone who might be interested, although I will add there are a couple of pages missing but the info that is there is very interesting.
All best Larry[/quote]
Larry,
Welcome to The Lab! Thanks a lot for the article--excellent stuff! A must for anybody interested in ribbon mics. Do you mind if I will host it and put here a link, so anybody could see it?
I also have an early BBC Monograph on the technical aspects of the BBC PGS ribbon mic, this was the forerunner of the Coles 4038. This article is in pdf format and is around 1 Meg. I can email this to anyone who might be interested, although I will add there are a couple of pages missing but the info that is there is very interesting.
All best Larry[/quote]
Larry,
Welcome to The Lab! Thanks a lot for the article--excellent stuff! A must for anybody interested in ribbon mics. Do you mind if I will host it and put here a link, so anybody could see it?
SilverhammerNZ
Well-known member
Go right ahead Marik.
Larry
Larry
Marik
Well-known member
[quote author="SilverhammerNZ"]Go right ahead Marik.
Larry[/quote]
Thanks Larry,
If you ever get missing two pages, please let me know. It seems that there they are talking about acoustical considerations.
Anyway, here we go:
http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman/Ribbon_Mic_info2.pdf
Larry[/quote]
Thanks Larry,
If you ever get missing two pages, please let me know. It seems that there they are talking about acoustical considerations.
Anyway, here we go:
http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman/Ribbon_Mic_info2.pdf
Great thread! And thanks for the monograph.
I have never tried to scratch-build a ribbon microphone but I have fabrcated & replaced a few ribbons. I have some reslo and grampian ribbon mics (and a better camera) so I'll try to take some close-up pictures of the assemblies - it might just help.
:thumb:
I have never tried to scratch-build a ribbon microphone but I have fabrcated & replaced a few ribbons. I have some reslo and grampian ribbon mics (and a better camera) so I'll try to take some close-up pictures of the assemblies - it might just help.
:thumb:
