Transformerless discrete balanced micamp

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cuelist

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2004
Messages
248
Location
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Following up on the recent thread, to me, the obvious way to go about making such a device would be to:

- Find a nice design using low noise transistors preceeding opamps (the Green Pre for example).

- Replace those opamps with discrete opamps, perhaps the nice ones offered by Fred F. or be daring and whip one up yourself.

It might take some tweaking to get it 100% stable but it should be possible and it would be a truly discrete (i e non-monolithic) design. Not sure much would be gained with this in terms of performance but all-discrete is the goal...
 
:)
Agreed!

Some time ago I started doing this, but with a*m*e*k m2500 micpre, check this out:

http://www.thediypill.phx.com.br/m2500_placed.pdf

Intend to get back to it soon, after get some rest and solder something to relax a bit...

cheers!
Fabio
 
I would start with Fred's schematic
http://www.forsselltech.com/JFETMP1.PDF
and change the OPA604 with discrete opamps. As Fred sugested in another post balanced in and unbalanced out is good so I would use only one opamp at the output.
I supose if you use Fred's JFET992 or 993 with only one opamp at the output you will have exactly the JMP-1 preamp module.

chrissugar
 
Rod got one;

http://sound.westhost.com/project66.htm

Never tried it. Pretty standard design as found in Mackie/Behringer gear. Could be cool, could be boring. I dunno, I wouldn't bother.
 
This is a nice one as well, very straightforward and a DC servo as well.
I suppose only the de-balancing opamp would be required.

http://www.symetrixaudio.com/tech_support/schematics/528_1B01.pdf
 
[quote author="sismofyt"]Rod got one;

http://sound.westhost.com/project66.htm

Never tried it. Pretty standard design as found in Mackie/Behringer gear. Could be cool, could be boring. I dunno, I wouldn't bother.[/quote]

This was my first DIY and I still use it even though I now have enough
other good mic preamps that I could ignore it. It takes alot of level and sure sounds better than my old Mackie 1204 pre's direct out.In fact
it convinced me that the green pre was a must.

It is unbal out but it's easy to tack on a bal driver output.

cheers,
Lance
 
> Replace those opamps with discrete opamps

Are universal opamps necessarily the best way to go, or just handy?
 
that symetrixaudio preamp is almost identical to the pres in the Alesis X2 console, only it originally uses 5532s and the phantom is a little different. same simplicity though.
 
from Lance:
and sure sounds better than my old Mackie 1204 pre's direct out.In fact
it convinced me that the green pre was a must.

Interesting to read this.

As far as a clear ranking could be made, do you perceive a big difference
between the ESP-#66 & the Green circuit ?
I mean, would you place the ESP-#66 closer to the 1202 or closer
to the Green ?


Thanks,

Peter
 
Hi all,

from Olaf:
When comparing the two the biggest diffeerence seems to be that the #66 uses a two-transistor input stage (like the B Unltragain, Midas and some others) whereas the Green uses one (like Mackie).
Don't have the Green-sch here, but (instead of considering the number of discrete devices) wouldn't the biggest difference be that it's a 'different kind' of pre ? (current feedback, iiric)

The usual 4 discretes forming a diffpair in front of the opamp could be thought of as a 2 transistor more-linear diffpair, maintaining the same circuit principle (again, iiric).


from Lance:
I can't say how the green pre cmpares to the ESP P66 because I
have not put my greens together yet. I've gotta get my Forssell Opto
done first so it will be a while.
OK thanks, & have fun soldering that one :thumb:

I use my old MS1202 still quite a lot - it's just a convenient format to take along. I'm puzzled though by the ESP-#66 being a noticable nicer pre - so I guess it comes down to component selection here since the topology is quite alike I thought. Must have peak inside the MS1202 to see if I easily can put some better caps etc in.

from Bill:
I still stand by the Valley design with parallel input transistors and a constant current source.
Thought I read somewhere it was used by The Jesus Lizard so imnsho it must be the best preamp of the universe :wink: :grin:


Bye,

Peter
 
That project on Rod Elliot's page, is that by the same P hil A llison who posts regularly on the Usenet newsgroups? If it is, well... I just hope his circuit design skills are better than his "people skills" :green:
 
[quote author="NewYorkDave"]That project on Rod Elliot's page, is that by the same P hil A llison who posts regularly on the Usenet newsgroups? [/quote]

Yes.... it is that same guy.

Brian
 
from Lance:
I can't say how the green pre cmpares to the ESP P66 because I
have not put my greens together yet. I've gotta get my Forssell Opto
done first so it will be a while.
OK thanks, & have fun soldering that one :thumb:

I use my old MS1202 still quite a lot - it's just a convenient format to take along. I'm puzzled though by the ESP-#66 being a noticable nicer pre - so I guess it comes down to component selection here since the topology is quite alike I thought. Must have peak inside the MS1202 to see if I easily can put some better caps etc in.

Peter[/quote]


hi Peter,

The biggest reason may be that I use an OPA604.
other change is 1K series in with the base R at 2K2 (input to each transistor Pair)
I use NTE 123AP & NTE 159 transistors because I didn't have any 4403 etc.

Lance
 
>> the biggest difference seems to be that the #66 uses a two-transistor input stage (like the B Unltragain, Midas and some others) whereas the Green uses one (like Mackie).

> Don't have the Green-sch here, but (instead of considering the number of discrete devices) wouldn't the biggest difference be that it's a 'different kind' of pre? (current feedback, iiric)

The gross difference is: some BJT+opamp designs take feedback around the whole thing, some just in each stage.

Rod's #66 has the BJTs working with only local feedback. That's hard to do well at high gain and/or level unless the transistors are compounded (Rod #66 PNP/NPN compound).

Many others bring the opamp outputs back to the input emitters. This gives enough feedback to use simple transistor inputs and get vanishingly low THD numbers. There is a subtlety here: if the opamp is compensated for unity gain, and the BJTs add gain inside the loop, it is sure to oscillate. And we don't want to over-compensate for less than unity gain, because most opamp slew-rate is barely good enough at unity-gain compensation. So if you'll note: the overall feedback resistors are (almost always) bigger than the transistor collector resistors. That keeps the opamp working at a gain somewhat over unity, with the BJTs supplying most of the bulk gain, and the opamp reserve gain just fighting BJT and opamp nonlinearity.

On paper, overall feedback may be a little better. In real life, simple things are often best, and the local feedback variant like Rod #66 has simple feedback.

There isn't any compelling reason for these opamps to be "good" opamps. They need great audio performance, but the DC performance can be awful. They can have high input current, and would work fine with DC offset of many-many-many millivolts (even 600mV, meaning we don't need diff-pair inputs). That's what I was hinting at: we do NOT need full opamp specifications, so why build something "universal" for a very specialized job?

And if you want to avoid opamp-think completely: take the BJT input of Rod #66 and do it twice, first feeding the second via caps. To duplicate his gain structure, the emitter resistor in the second stage should be fixed around 75 ohms. However you might instead vary both emitter resistors with a dual pot. And for reasonable range of gain, a dual-linear pot would give a square-law curve not that different from a "proper" reverse-audio taper pot. The output impedance is quite high, like 4K4, so you want a couple emitter followers. This BJT topology isn't optimized for output swing, but you could still reach +18dBm which is a usable value. (Or use hi-volt transistors and scale-up to say +/-30V.) The CMRR isn't "infinite" and varies with gain, but could be 20dB at low gains and 40dB at high gains, more than enough for any place you should be using recording gear.

Oh: all these plans were using "Current Feedback" 20 years before it became the darling buzz-word of the chipmakers.
 
cool stuff PRR ,

I'd love to try that all bjt version. Can someone take a crack at drawing it?

At my level of undrstanding it would take me all day at least and I
have the in-laws arriving in an hour.

Lance
 
> Can someone take a crack at drawing it?

What draw? This is rubber-stamp work.


Click picture for readable copy.
 

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