Variable Impedence Mic Input

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synthetic

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Messages
218
Location
Glendale, CA
I have been thinking about adding a variable impedence input to a mic preamp design. This is based on an impressive demo I heard of the GT Vipre. There was an interesting sound change as he turned up the impedence on the mic input. Aspen calls it a "time machine," adding "10 years with each click." The only schematic I've seen for a feature like this this (haven't found a Vipre schematic) is this one by Jensen:

http://www.jensentransformers.com/as/as016.pdf

The impedence switch in this circuit doesn't seem to work, though. When the Mic Z switch is set to Low, there's no connection at all.

Is vaying the impedence just a matter of switching a pair of resistors into the mic input? If I want a 300 ohm input impedence, do I add a 150 ohm resistor to each leg of the signal?
 
Hi Synthetic, if you look carefully at that switch, there is a connection which either goes straight through or- what you are seeing as no connection is the signal running through the 68k resistors. I doubt this is the kind of impedence switching thats on the viper. its p[robably a multi impedence tapped transformer with a switch to different taps.
I'm no expert compared to most of the peeps on this list though. search around through some of the transformer postings and you'll learn much.
Check out some of the things Cjenrick has done to transformers.

Sleeper
 
> When the Mic Z switch is set to Low, there's no connection at all.

The signal passes through the 68r1 resistors.

I'm not sure this is what you want. The Jensen plan fixes a different problem. Mike transformers are designed to work from about a 150Ω source. Some modern amplified mikes present a very low-Z source, a few ohms. This emphasizes the transformer's upper resonance, designed to be damped by a 150Ω source. Switching in the 136Ω of dummy resistance puts the transformer back at design conditions. Noise is a hair higher, but such mikes normally have such high output level (including self-noise level) that this isn't relevant.

I think what you want is a variable resistor across the input. Most inputs are over 2K and thus "high" compared to 50Ω-300Ω mikes. But some historic inputs were lower. Try 1K, 500, 250, 125, 62 ohms across the input. Output level (and S/N) will drop, but because the mike's impedance versus frequency is never quite flat, it will drop more at some frequencies than at others. It's different, but I'm not sure how it is "better" than just using EQ to taste.

The other way is to actually switch transformer ratios. If the reflected secondary impedance is low (low turns ratio), the winding resonance is small; if secondary impedance (and turns ratio) is large, the winding resonance effects are large. That obviously needs a special transformer. And for it to have a real audible effect, the higher ratios have to be "flawed" by conventional "flat" standards. And again it is possible to get much the same effect with EQ.
 
There is also this one from Cinemag , the CM-9955-T .....

Check at the bottom of their list
http://www.cinemag.biz/mic_input/mic_input.html

The GT Vipre is probably using it , look at the inside pic
http://www.groovetubes.com/assets/1602_nu_Vipre_inside_no_shields.PDF

Luis
 
[quote="PRR]I think what you want is a variable resistor across the input.
Most inputs are over 2K and thus "high" compared to 50Ω-300Ω mikes. But some historic
inputs were lower. Try 1K, 500, 250, 125, 62 ohms across the input. Output level (and S/N) will drop
[/quote]
Or to use paralel negative feedback with rather big feedback resistor?
Try gain 60 dB and 1M, 500 k, 250k, 125k, 62k as negative paralel feedback resistor.
Then actual input resistance lowers by Miller theorem,
Current noise of the resistor will be the some.
You gets synthetic resistor, which have very low noise temperature,
just as you cool it by liquid hydrogen.
[quote="PRR]
The other way is to actually switch transformer ratios.
[/quote]
Only in special cases can be noise - optimal

xvlk
 
Oh right, I see the connection in the switch now.

The Vipre definitely uses Cinemag transformers. Perhaps once I have a working mic pre breadboard I'll experiment with different input transformers. Thanks for your help.
 
[quote author="xvlk"]Or to use paralel negative feedback with rather big feedback resistor?
Try gain 60 dB and 1M, 500 k, 250k, 125k, 62k as negative paralel feedback resistor.
Then actual input resistance lowers by Miller theorem,
Current noise of the resistor will be the some.[/quote]That's an interesting concept and something I had not thought of...
 
What about a resistor across the secondary of the input transformer?

Wouldn´t it change the impedance "reflected" to the mic?

Just like the neve 1073 circuit... It could be seen as attenuator, but I think it would change the impedance of the transformer primary also.
 
I read somewere on the web that the neumanns when wired for a 200 ohm out like to see a 2K microphone input. Also all the newer transformerless microphone using a circuit like in the neumann TLM line have 50 or 100 ohm resistors on the balenced output.
 
doesn't help with your problem i'm afraid, but there is a pretty interesting block diagram of the vipre on the GT website. nothing too unusual in it, how about a vipre style pre from some one?
 
Pretty cool. It's good to see Aspen Pitman is still putting out cool stuff.
It is also good to see someone actually using the taps provided on the transformer.
So much work could have been saved by UTC if they only knew that nobody was going to use the taps that the poor winders had to fuss with. Bringing out taps is a major pain!
 
[quote author="rafafredd"]What about a resistor across the secondary of the input transformer?

Wouldn´t it change the impedance "reflected" to the mic?

Just like the neve 1073 circuit... It could be seen as attenuator, but I think it would change the impedance of the transformer primary also.[/quote]

Yes in short..;-)

Kind regards

Peter
 
This is way above my head - but I was planning to ask a question about this because I am very interested to add this to my future mic pres..

Here is some info I have gathered if it is of use to anybody.. especially use newbies... all via Hugh Robjohns of the SoundonSound mag
(I Understood the first one if that's any help)

"The input impedance of a mic amp has a direct bearing on the captured sound quality from most (but not all) microphones. In general, the higher the impedance, the better, and a lot of high-end mic preamps have input impedances of around 5k(omega) instead of the more normal 1.2k(omega). However, some microphones ? notably ribbon mics ? prefer a much lower input impedance too, say 600(omega) or less.
Increasing the impedance means that the microphone has to supply less current, which can help it to produce a greater signal level. More level from the source means less amplifier gain is required in the preamp, which means less noise overall. A higher impedance also means there will be less HF loss from the inherently capacitive cable. This translates as a brighter, clearer sound, often with a slightly more apparent room acoustic.

Reducing the input impedance places greater demands on the microphone to supply current, and this can cause all sorts of odd effects with some mics. In general, dynamic mics will respond to a lower input impedance by producing a more uneven frequency response, as resonances in the electro-mechanical system become more emphasised. This can be thought of as a kind of 'free EQ', though its effects are rather unpredictable and not always useful!

In any case, all of these effects are fairly subtle. They're obvious enough when making direct comparisons, but you won't usually be aware of them in a complete mix. Dynamic mics will almost always show the greatest effects, while good-quality transformerless mics will usually show the least change."


Before the advent of the practical silicon transistor amplifier around 40 years ago, it was custom and practice in the audio industry to use impedance matching when interfacing equipment ? this was the era of the 600(omega) termination. In the case of microphones and microphone amplifiers, it was important to transfer as much power between source and destination as possible, and that meant matched impedances. Consequently, microphones (generally ribbons and dynamics) were designed typically with 300(omega) output impedance and the mic amplifiers of the day offered 300(omega) input impedances. However, as technology advanced it became fashionable to use voltage coupling, where the amplifier input impedance was at least ten times higher than the source impedance. Consequently, mic amp inputs gradually rose to something like 1.5k(omega) or even 3k(omega).

Presonus Eureka..
"The third rotary control is actually a switch to change the input impedance in five steps from 50(omega) to 2500(omega). Many preamps offering variable input impedance provide a higher maximum figure than this ? typically 5k(omega) or so ? but the range offered here is sufficient to match a wide selection of mics, including most ribbons, and affords useful tone-shaping characteristics which are far more subtle than most EQs can manage."


ISA 428The button cycles through four options: Low (600(omega)); ISA110 (1400(omega)); Medium (2400(omega)); and High (6800(omega)). These different impedance values are obtained by selecting different taps on the microphone input transformer.
(my emphasis)

VIPRE
It can be routed either via a custom transformer (with selectable impedance matching via one of the large rotary controls)
 
The Vipre has a fixed resistor across the secondaries of the transformer, and different primaries are switched in to achieve the variable impedance. The problem I see here is that the turns ratio is also being changed, affecting the overall gain, so I would imagine it would be tricky to get a true comparison when switching due to the sound decreasing/increasing in volume between settings.

I was thinking of using a Lundahl and make a switching board so that I could take advantage of the multiple turns ratios, as well as switching in parallel resistances across the secondaries to affect the reflected impedance. Best of both worlds, perhaps?

Of course, it's a lot of work to achieve something that could probably be achieved with an EQ, like PRR says. (But that's half the fun!!)

-E.

BTW, the Vipre does seem pretty cool, though I haven't heard one. Of course, only a tube reseller would design a microphone preamp with 7 tubes for a single channel!
 
What about an old UTC A-25? Backwards, I think; has plate to line, 15k, 8ma dc. 50, 125/150, 200/250, 333, 500/600, 40-20k, 1580 dcr pri, +15dbm max level. Don't know load impedances though, so if we were to take into consideration load impedance, as described, for instance , by Wes Dooley:http://mixonline.com/online_extras/ribbon_mic_preamps/
multi input could also be very practical as well as interesting effect to vary sound of a single mic. Freind Larry just informed me it's 5:1 so should work well backwards.

I've been thinking of this mod to Jakobs G9 circuit just to match input impedances to mics, in consideration for ribbons. A-25 +15db (assuming level max would equal gain,) might be at odds w/my intention of increasing gain levels for ribbons while adding flexibility to inputs. What is the OEP input xfrmr gain in G9 circuit? I recall Jakob saying total gain is 65dB. Cinemag CM-9955T doesn't list gains for various input windings--anybody have a data sheet for this one? A-25s go for $95-115, right in line with Jensen and probably Cinemag; although the eBone bids can get a bit out of hand.
 
Let's attach this to this thread:

Latest TapeOp has a review of the Gordon Instruments Model 5 mic preamp, mentioning an input-impedance for the mic-input as high as 2 MOhm...

Two megohm input impedance eliminates current-related losses and load distortion in mics
That's a few orders of magnitude higher than I've seen so far...

I didn't see any picoFarads being mentioned though... several of these will quickly lower that 2M-figure...
 
2 meg input? Bootstrapped inputs?

What about the 6.8Ks for the phantom? are they switched out for non phantom microphones?
 
[quote author="Gus"]2 meg input? Bootstrapped inputs?

What about the 6.8Ks for the phantom? are they switched out for non phantom microphones?[/quote]
Haven't seen a schematic, dunno about bootstrapping (it's 2M diff BTW) and of course that wouldn't strictly be needed.

Ha, this circuit would then even be ten times 'better':
twenty MOhm of input impedance (for DC)... :cool:
http://home.hetnet.nl/~chickennerdpig/FILES/Tek122/Tek_Type122_circuit_ampsection_rt.jpg
FWIW... and indeed, I saw nothing about the phantom power resistors, but I expect that the 'claimed benefits' are mainly for non-phantom mics. They should indeed disconnect these then from the signal path.

Bye,

Peter
 
[quote author="xvlk"]Or to use paralel negative feedback with rather big feedback resistor?
Try gain 60 dB and 1M, 500 k, 250k, 125k, 62k as negative paralel feedback resistor.
Then actual input resistance lowers by Miller theorem,
Current noise of the resistor will be the some.
You gets synthetic resistor, which have very low noise temperature,
just as you cool it by liquid hydrogen.
xvlk[/quote]

I may have mentioned this in here before:

Radeka (nuke sci guy) showed a good example of this some years ago (IEEE Trans. Nuc. Sci. NS-21 Feb 1974). The application was terminating lines in a position-sensitive particle detector with matched Z loads, but with less than the thermal noise of the loads. There is a discussion in Arbel, Analog Signal Processing and Instrumentation, ISBN 0521224691 (1980). The technique has also been used to damp resonant seismic detectors, gravity gradiometers*, etc.

If you have an amplifier (or can just make one) with a well-defined single-pole rolloff, the predominant feedback element can be a capacitor, avoiding the thermal noise of the feedback resistor that would be used with a flat amp.


*See for example http://www.regnirps.com/Graviometer/graviometer.htm
 

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