Question about Line transformer

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simonsez

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 14, 2008
Messages
679
Location
Jakarta, ID
Hai guys, i am sure that you can explain to me about my question here, i'm trying to understand about transformer. little confuse here... ???Please correct me if i'm wrong.

When it's said Tx with 4:1 turn ratio, then it has 16:1 impedance ratio right? as far i know the impedance is not static, so if i connect the secondary with 600 ohm then the primary became 9600 ohm, if S =1k ohm then P=16 k ohm right? then if i have a tx labeled P=600 ohm: S=600ohm, is it can be 10k:10k if i connect S with 10k load?

How about winding turn? say that tx with 1:1 turn ratio, is it doesn't matter if i use any number winding turn as long as P=S?

When an line output circuit need Tx with 1:4 turn ratio, how many winding turn is it?

How about core size and chopper gauge? how to determine the right size/ gauge?

Sorry for asking too many question, thanks for your help and....i'm sorry for my bad english.. :-[



 
Ok, I'm not the specialist here, but I'll try to answer what I have understood,

simonsez said:
then if i have a tx labeled P=600 ohm: S=600ohm, is it can be 10k:10k if i connect S with 10k load?

No. efficiency of the core together with the number of wire turns define your transformer inductance wich sets the lower cutoff frequency of tx. For example, 600 ohms primary for -3db at 20Hz will give a much higher cutoff freq if connected to a 10k source : not enough turns or core not strong enough (or both).

simonsez said:
How about winding turn? say that tx with 1:1 turn ratio, is it doesn't matter if i use any number winding turn as long as P=S?

It's getting more complicated but basically, one problem is that too much turns will lead to capacitance and HF trouble.

simonsez said:
When an line output circuit need Tx with 1:4 turn ratio, how many winding turn is it?

Depends on many factors. What is the inductance per turn of the core ? For witch impedance?...

simonsez said:
How about core size and chopper gauge? how to determine the right size/ gauge?

Size of the core determine max power handling and also, the bigger the core the higher the inductance (for a given material) but too big a core, other problems can occur. Wire gauge mainly sets the max current handling, but it has to fit the window.

Transformer winding is a real science, and some even will say an art.
Maths, tips and tricks, tradeoffs, maths again, experimentation...

There are people here who are really good at it (like CJ and others), and you can also search the transformer META for useful links about theory.

here's a link, not so exhaustive regarding theory, but useful to start for newbies like us, and this is diy from scratch:

http://geek.scorpiorising.ca/windingchokes.html

Good luck. :)
Regards,

Laurent.


 
Thanks Laurent, i really appreciated,...that's really helpfull. i should read more before asking any question...thanks for the link, i will read it slowwlyyy... :-\
 
> secondary with 600 ohm then the primary became 9600 ohm, if S =1k ohm then P=16 k ohm right?

Pretty much.

> then if i have a tx labeled P=600 ohm: S=600ohm, is it can be 10k:10k if i connect S with 10k load?

Not quite so true. (As pyjaman said.)

A good "600:600" transformer might be 600 ohms inductance at 20Hz. Inductive reactance rises with frequency. So it may be 1,200 at 40Hz, 2,400 at 80Hz, 4K8 at 160Hz, and 10K near 320Hz.

If you truly need a 10K impedance, because your source can't drive anything less, then response below 320Hz will be poor.

Conversely, a 10K:10K "can" be used as "600:600". However winding resistance tends to be 10% of nominal marked impedance. So a "10K:10K" winding may have 1K of copper resistance. Inserted in a true 600 ohm circuit, this will be a significant drop in level.

Calling a 600r winding "1K" is not much of a difference, and may not matter. Using a winding 10 times away from the design impedance will usually be disappointing.

"Good" transformers may still be good 2:1 away from design impedance. Cheap iron like a $9.95 table radio had just-barely enough inductance to sound good, and getting 2:1 away from design parameters may shave an important octave off an already lame response.

There are additional high-frequency effects but they are brain-puzzles.

With modern cheap amplifiers and narrow selection of costly iron, you can usually drive with a very low impedance, load with a medium-high impedance, and get your signal through nice. You may waste more energy in transformer parasitics than in the actual load, but sometimes that's no big deal.

Before good amplifiers (original telephone systems predate tubes), or with costly amplifiers (early tubes were very expensive and low power), transformer design was critical to making a system work better than two Dixie cups and a string.

> it doesn't matter if i use any number winding turn

More turns is better inductance, but more turns in the same space requires thinner wire, and more turns of thinner wire means much higher copper resistance.

For most audio, we can find a compromise with acceptable 5%-20% copper-loss. 50% copper loss suggests we need a tube twice as big as we would need with a perfect transformer, and that hurts the budget. 10% loss only needs a 110% tube, and we can usually accept that.

Take a core which is big enough to handle the power. Preferably already wound with audio specifications. Wind one turn around the winding. Measure the ratio from a known winding to your one turn: that tells you how many turns the original expert designer used for that impedance. Compute the turns for your desired impedance. Estimate the space inside the windows, that says how much copper will fit. Assume half the space for each, primary and secondary. Use this space and your turn-count to figure the maximum size of wire you can use. Round down: wire rarely packs even 85% of the space. Calculate the total resistance of that length and gauge, see if this is "small" compared with your desired audio impedance.

Below a few K, just wind pri-sec or pri-sec-pri.

Above 10K, and full audio bandwidth, much more elaborate windings are needed to control stray inductance and capacitance.
 
Thank you PRR, that's give me better understanding. I just try to find the logical thing about Tx, but i think the "copper resistance" is the unperfect factor here, so i can't just use any 1:1 turn ratio tx for anything because Inductive reactance rises with frequency. I have two very old tx labeled 10k ct 10k : 600 ohm, but they have different size, i think that because  they have different copper gauge so the winding turn number will be different to achieve the same impedance (inductance?)

>More turns is better inductance, but more turns in the same space requires thinner wire, and more turns of thinner wire means much higher copper resistance.

Now i know what pyjaman said... Transformer winding is a real science, and some even will say an art.
Maths, tips and tricks, tradeoffs, maths again, experimentation...


I have a push pull line amp with 5687 output tube, i try to use a 500ma E core power transformer as output transformer(P=0-110v-220v, S=24-ct-24), it's work good! no low freq loss. The high freq is good too, but...do i missed something here?




 
> they have different size

Size is proportional to power, lowest frequency versus distortion, and type of iron.

5 Watts per pound is good for 50/60Hz power transformers, and for medium-performance audio.

A cheap 1-watt table radio with 150Hz response may use an OT less than a tenth of a pound. The OT for a 5-Watt Champ gitar amp is slightly less than a pound. The OT on my hi-fi 9-Watt amp was near 4 pounds.

Large transformers will be designed with just-enough iron to meet their specs. Very low-power transformers are sometimes generous, because making a very small transformer with very thin wire costs more in winding time than the saving of metal is worth.

Size has almost nothing to do with impedance. The Champ OT has 7,000 ohms one side, 4 ohms the other side. We could generally wind down below 1 ohm, and up past 10K ohms, without any change except change of wire gauge and length.

(Getting great response much above 10K requires tricks. For small power, super-iron allows ample inductance on a smaller core, with fewer turns, and with a smaller area to cause capacitance. Or a larger core allows greater insulation between layers, reducing capacitance. But in general, you prefer to stay away from high impedance audio windings.)

_______________________________________________________
> push pull line amp with 5687 output tube, i try to use a 500ma E core power transformer as output transformer(P=0-110v-220v, S=24-ct-24), it's work good! no low freq loss. The high freq is good too, but...do i missed something here?

The 5687, well loaded, can put out 1 or 2 Watts. Your OT presents about 12Kct to the plates, and 200V 40mA would be an excellent condition for the tube. That's about 6K-3K load to each plate, plate resistance is near 2K here, it should work good.

When worked all the way to 220V rms on primary, the distortion of a small power transformer at 50/60Hz is terrible. As a power transformer, "distortion" means a distorted current waveform in the primary, a strain on the utility company generator. But a few-Watt PT on a megaWatt utility system, this strain does not matter. When the source is a small tube, it matters.

48V into 600 ohms is 4 Watts, your tube can't easily do that. It is also +36dBm, an insane level for small studio work. Assuming +20dB audio peaks, you have 7.7V audio in a "48V" power winding. You are working at 1/6th the level it runs as a power transformer. While distortion at 48V would be high, at 1/3rd power-rated voltage it is usually tolerable. So at 1/6th rated voltage it may be audibly "clean", though perhaps not perfectly transparent for large bass. Distortion will rise at low frequency and fall at high frequency. Above 500Hz this iron may be far cleaner than your tube.

I expect a small simple 120V power transformer to be very roughly 2K impedance near 50Hz. Since this is near your plate resistance, I would expect some small droop by 50Hz, maybe 25hz. Your 24VA core is bigger, should do better. You may be solid to 20Hz, which is very good.

The old-old 2-4-1 power transformers were tightly wound, and CJ measured one as flat to past 15KHz. I have seen similar response on other PTs. However the increased demand for safety has led to greater separation between primary and secondary. A split-bobbin winding may be falling before 10KHz. I have a U-core PT with primary on one leg and secondary on the other leg, great for safety, but the response is falling by 2KHz. At low frequency, most of the flux is in the iron and cuts all coils. At high frequency, the iron is not doing much, you must make all coils "intimate" with each other. Primary over secondary is often good enough. Primary on one leg and secondary an inch away on the other leg, the highs don't get through.

So: it depends, I'm not going to analyze your iron from afar, you can measure it yourself, or just enjoy.
 
Thank you PRR, a lot i can learn here...I don't have a plan to wind my own Tx, as usual,  i will read it slowly before asking further question....

One more thing...My old iron (1959 sub miniature tx) pickup noise very bad, but in some position the noise is gone, not hisss...not hum....but it's like low mid noise (EMI?)? is there any way to shield my tx? i like its sound...not clear but i like it in front of my LA2A diy. THanks..
 
Unfortunately, xfmrs are inherently sensitive to stray magnetic fields. Thre are two methods to get rid of magnetically induced hum.
a) magnetic shield: using a magnetic material, such as mu-metal, netic, permalloy or even plain old mild steel (not copper, aluminium or plastic ;) ). Just google magnetic shield, a number of companies have diy kits.
b) humbucking configuration. It is based on using two xfmrs in parallels or series connected in anti-phase. The desired signal will be shared betwwen both and the induced noise will cancel. It is expensive, but the xfmrs just need to handle half the power, so they may be marginally cheaper, and mu-metal is very expensive too (must be heat-treated after milling/drilling/forming)
 
Wow...lucky me i ask that question, i have a plan to make tx shield with copper foil, that will not work right? Ok ... i will google it and try to find a simple solution for this...if there is any. Thanks Abbey...
 
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