Keeping a multitracked recording "in the pocket"

[riggler]

So I'm recording a band that likes to work like this:

1. Record a scratch acoustic rhythm guitar track to a click.
2. Record drums to the guitar track.
3. Record bass.
4. Record vox, etc...

The problem with this is, even though I can massage things to make the parts technically locked in to the click, the vibe of "in the pocket" isn't there, like if we record everybody live. But, they want to be able to punch in on different tracks and make everything note-perfect, pitch-perfect...

I've played with a couple things, like adjusting the bass by a few ms, but what's missing is the natural micro-adjustment interaction between players.

Any tips? (I do know this is a land of compromises...)

[mushy]

In an extreme case with a young band who's singer was not very good but had great pocket with the band, I vocaligned the pitch perfect overdubbed vocal comp to the vibey yet unusable scratch track. It works with guitars too. 

Go ahead, everyone. Throw rotten fruit at me. 

[ruairioflaherty]

So I'm recording a band that likes to work like this:

1. Record a scratch acoustic rhythm guitar track to a click.
2. Record drums to the guitar track.
3. Record bass.
4. Record vox, etc...

OK, I'll ask the obvious question - why not record the drums, bass and acoustic at the same time?  I'm guessing you are limited to on live space and one control room?  If so

- bring the acoustic player into the control room with you and once you have finished getting sounds for bass and drums you track on cans
- The bass player can go out in the live room with the drummer.  If he/she is using an amp find a closet or alternatively reamp later (I would much sooner give up tracking the amp than give up feel).

The key thing here is good headphone mixes, really good headphone mixes.

Cheers,
Ruairi

[emrr]

this is really easy when they are really good pro players.  hell on earth when they aren't, and everything in between.   The first thing I'd do with most people is immediately redo the guitar to the drums and be sure they feel right.   Many times you find problems that aren't terribly obvious. 

[riggler]

The musicians are pretty darned good and can really lock up live. And even when separate-taked like this they are pretty consistent. But, just some of the feel goes away. I like the idea of having the bass in the room with the drummer and putting the cabinet in another room. I can do that. And I can also put the acoustic in my control room. There is a little bit of machine noise, but I don't think you will really hear it overall.

I do have three small rooms with windows that would be perfect, but then I'm not using the awesome big room we have available for drums. Maybe we should give that a try though, got tons of ways to make drums bigger, and the feel is more important to me right now than "big"...

[Biasrocks]

The musicians are pretty darned good and can really lock up live.

My first question is why do they want to track like that?

How I would approach it, is to track everything live to a click (or not) for feel and then
replace whatever needs to be and go from there. Isolate what you need, but get them
playing together. If you're producing it's also the quickest way to assess the song and
make any adjustments.

You could propose a quick experiment to do it live and compare the results.

Mark

[desol]

So I'm recording a band that likes to work like this:

1. Record a scratch acoustic rhythm guitar track to a click.
2. Record drums to the guitar track.
3. Record bass.
4. Record vox, etc...

The problem with this is, even though I can massage things to make the parts technically locked in to the click, the vibe of "in the pocket" isn't there, like if we record everybody live. But, they want to be able to punch in on different tracks and make everything note-perfect, pitch-perfect...

I've played with a couple things, like adjusting the bass by a few ms, but what's missing is the natural micro-adjustment interaction between players.

Any tips? (I do know this is a land of compromises...)

It sounds like your already answering the question you want answered?

Just suggest it to them...spend enough time getting sounds...then go!

[drpat]

By the time the drummer is laying down his track you are already two degrees of separation from your original timing guide... the click track. So now the drummer is forced to adjust to the acoustic guitar's timing anomalies which will only make things worse as far as feel is concerned.

If the drummer has issues with having to listen to a click while playing, it may be a good idea to use something softer, like a shaker, as a guide track that plays along with the acoustic while he's tracking. It's imperative that he follows the same timing reference the the acoustic did or it will never feel right.

If the drummer is simply unable to follow a click, try doubling the amount of beats with the new, "in between" beats at a lower level to "fill in" the timing reference. Most of the worst drummers that I've worked with will claim that they don't need a click because their timing is so good... this would be your red flag. I'm not saying that it's this particular drummer's case, but if it is, go to lunch, and leave him practicing to a click for an hour while you're gone.

[Silvas]

This is what i do in this kind of situations : (i´m on protools tho)

After the drums are done, i use beat detective, to extract drummer´s timing and generate a new click track and grid based on the drummer.

Then, maybe i tighten up the drums to itselves. Basically, tighten the in-between hits between each kick and snare hit. Again, with beat detective but maybe elastic audio if i´m on a hurry.

Now i can use the drums as a solid guide so i can continue tracking, and still have all the benefits of the click.

Lifesaver for me. For example, i prefer to lock up the click to the drummer than trying to tighten up the drummer to the click and the loops...

Of course you have to do this inmediately after the drums are done, as they are going to be your timing reference for all the overdubs.

YMMV, of course.

[riggler]

Dr. Pat,

The drummer is very good and has no problem playing to the clicktrack. The problem is when overdubbing all the other rhythm section instruments, although aligned to the click, the "groove" just doesn't feel as good as when they all play at together at the same time.

Desol, I'm going to try this with them on the next song, all at once! Bias, they want to play like that because #1 scheduling is very tough, and #2 the guitarist likes to have lots of takes...

Silvas, I am on PT and do use Beat Detective to lock up drums to the click, but have never tried mapping a click from the real performance, that sounds very cool!

[Silvas]

Silvas, I am on PT and do use Beat Detective to lock up drums to the click, but have never tried mapping a click from the real performance, that sounds very cool!

I came up with this technique after a nightmare-ish recording, similar to what you have now, a few years ago. I use it all the time, but not always.

I love the concept of tightening up the drummer with himself. I mean, you can have this slight (or not so slight) tempo variations from measure to measure, but as long as the in-between hits are in the right place, most of the feel is preserved and you don't completely destroy the human side of the drum track.

[drpat]

2. Record drums to the guitar track.

I think I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around this. Is the drummer recording to the guitar track only (without the click)? If so, it would be a miracle if he could follow just the guitar track and still be able to maintain the same sense of feel that the band achieves live, when the guitar would normally be following the feel of the drums.

If you feel the need to alter the timing of the drums, maybe you could do a tempo map (as Silvas suggested) then tighten up the drums, then re-track the reference acoustic to lock it back in to the new groove of the drums. Moving of the timing of the drums will inevitably skew the feel of the reference guitar track in relation to the drums. Been there... done that!

Pro Tools has some great quantizing tools for elastic that allow you to quantize audio by a user defined percentage, instead of snapping everything to an absolute grid. You can also exclude quantizing (by a certain percentage) on events that are already close to your grid. I use these features all of the time to maintain 'relative feel' while tightening up the performance of a 'not so tight' drummer.

I like to map the tempo by identifying the first beat of every bar, then "loosely" quantize (as explained above) the drums to 8th notes or 16th notes depending on what the drums are doing.

The problem is when overdubbing all the other rhythm section instruments, although aligned to the click, the "groove" just doesn't feel as good as when they all play at together at the same time.

Aligning all the other rhythm section instruments to the click is possibly doing more harm than good. The drummer played to a guitar track reference... not to the click (if I'm understanding you correctly). Once again, back to 2 degrees of separation.

The drummer is very good

In that case, I wouldn't alter the timing (or feel) of his tracks at all. Once again, maybe you could try re-tracking the guitar after the drums are already recorded which would approximate what's really going on when they're playing together.

[riggler]

Hi guys, the drummer recorded to a click. I had a guitar track recorded that I would bring up every now and then as a reference so he knew where he was in the song. That's what I meant.

Anyways, I tracked tonight and I had the guitarist "play a little early", just told him that a few times and like magic he was right there!! (there still are a few spots I'll nudge but this is 10x better.)

The rest of the album will be drums/bass/rhythm guitar all at once!!!! 

[desol]

The rest of the album will be drums/bass/rhythm guitar all at once!!!!  

That's the only way man. At least you get the energy from people playing off of each other.
Now, just lose the headphones (thanks Terry)...and we're really getting there.  

- although, in order to lose the phones...one needs a bigger room.

[Silvas]

I came up with this technique after a nightmare-ish recording, similar to what you have now, a few years ago. I use it all the time, but not always.

Now i realize how redundant this sounded, please excuse my english.

Keep us posted !

[riggler]

I could put them all in the awesome big room and just isolate a wee bit with baffles...

...hmm...

[lassoharp]

So I'm recording a band that likes to work like this:

1. Record a scratch acoustic rhythm guitar track to a click.
2. Record drums to the guitar track.
3. Record bass.
4. Record vox, etc...

The problem with this is, even though I can massage things to make the parts technically locked in to the click, the vibe of "in the pocket" isn't there, like if we record everybody live. But, they want to be able to punch in on different tracks and make everything note-perfect, pitch-perfect...

I've played with a couple things, like adjusting the bass by a few ms, but what's missing is the natural micro-adjustment interaction between players.

Any tips? (I do know this is a land of compromises...)

Here's an alternate plan to try if possible -

Get the band to record a take full on live, ideally as relaxed as possible - tell them whatever you wish - you need it for level references, etc.  If you can get them to perform a live take without them worrying about mistakes and under the assumption that the live take 'will not be used' you may have a good chance of getting that feel you're looking for. Constructive subterfuge.

Then proceed with their chosen working method and compare the two takes when it's done. Should be easy to spot which one works best, and if it does turn out to be the live take you both then have a better perspective on the differences each methods affords.

I can't tell you how many times I've recorded a song with the drummer doing the keeper take accompanied by the singer doing a 'guide' vocal with an acoustic guitar only to find out later that the guide vocal is never surpassed by the 'real' vocal - regardless of punch in's(which often made things worse) or comping.

Baffles and iso rooms are good for retaining some ability to punch in the inevitable instrument flubs - except for drums of course.

I've found that having players with little or no previous experience with playing to clicks is often a bad idea to attempt during a session. "Hell on earth" as emrr said.  It may galvanize them into ascending to another level but it usually bogs session flow down and leaves the troops with anxiety, frustration and low morale.