NEW product help

Hi guys.
I'm moving forward with the development of a product or two.  I was wondering if there is anyone here in the US that would be able to help me with the proper steps towards a final product.  Looking for help more with the legal side than technical side of this.

Obviously I don't have loads of cash sitting around, but I also don't expect this to be a free service, unless someone feels inclined to.

Please contact me if you can help.

Thanks

Gil
[email protected]

It would be good to discuss it here so that the others could also benefit.

I am not based in US but I have a considerable experience in product development also from the legal point of view. I am happy to help  as much as I can.I had a reasonably long relation with a US based oem customer and in one occassion I used a Boston based lawyer that I can put you in touch with as an when required.

Thanks man,

Here is where I am:

Design is pretty much at 70% done.  Parts of this design is done by another member here.  Most of this will be SMD work. 
Power supply will most likely be a combination of internal OEM PSU and some added circuitry. 
Mechanical design won't be difficult.  Pretty simple 1RU, maybe 2RU unit.

My initial question is:
Once my product is designed, both mechanically and circuitry, what kind of certifications or tests do they have to go through to be legal to produce?
Also,  if part of my product uses licensed technology, how can I still copyright and/or Patent my part of the design?

Sorry if these questions are really elementary.  I've never done this before.

Thanks
Gil

BR said:

Thanks man,

Here is where I am:

Design is pretty much at 70% done.  Parts of this design is done by another member here.  Most of this will be SMD work. 
Power supply will most likely be a combination of internal OEM PSU and some added circuitry. 

Click to expand...

If primary/line cord part of PS is purchased OEM unit and UL/CSA registered. you shouldn't need to re-certify the PS.

 
Mechanical design won't be difficult.  Pretty simple 1RU, maybe 2RU unit.

My initial question is:
Once my product is designed, both mechanically and circuitry, what kind of certifications or tests do they have to go through to be legal to produce?

Click to expand...

Depends.. If there are no dangerous voltages, temperatures, RF interference, etc, you may be Ok without going through formal testing.

Also,  if part of my product uses licensed technology, how can I still copyright and/or Patent my part of the design?

Click to expand...

If the part of the design not involving licensed technology is a protectable invention, you need to file for that protection in a timely manner.

For US patent protection, as I recall, the application must be filed within one year of publication. Showing it at a trade show, or selling a unit, counts as publication and starts the patent clock running. IIRC to file for patent protection in some foreign markets you need to file before publication.

You can copyright a PCB layout if you fear people will copy it.

Sorry if these questions are really elementary.  I've never done this before.

Thanks
Gil

Click to expand...

You may want to talk with some similar small business owners.

JR

Yeah...two words...wall wart. I've been through UL/CSA...it's very expensive.
SOL on vaccum tube gear I guess.

One thing I hope we can discuss Is CE...I have to do that on some products soon, and have no clue.

As far as patents...well I have many but am clueless on those as well. I have no idea how my patent attorney comes
up with that boilerplate gibberish...I can't even read mine.

One thing I can say...the process is ridiculously slow. I just had a microphone patent issue, and it took over four Years!
It used to take only a year or so.

Les
L M Watts Technology

leswatts said:

One thing I hope we can discuss Is CE...I have to do that on some products soon, and have no clue.

Click to expand...

CE is relatively easy. Same caveat as "dangerous voltages, temperatures, RF interference,"
If your product is free from those, the CE process is self-certication, which means you have to have a file at the ready, whenever an agent requests it, with all your explanations that led you to the conclusion that your piece of gear is not harmful. I have done self-cert for 18 years now, never had an inquest...Even in the case of the aforementioned possible issues, you can make your own experiments and use them as evidence. But the administration can challenge you and request that you prove (using a certified lab) that your conclusions are sustainable. Having those tests done by a certified lab is so expensive, very few manufacturers use them.

If possible use an off-the-shelf external psu. This saves you a lot of expense in compliance and bureaucracy of its maintenance. It also minimises your product liability. Insurance companies love that.

In terms of patenting your design. Unless it is a ground breaking design topology that would blow away high calibre designers that are operating in the market, my humble opinion will be that don't waste your money on it. Seems like you are just starting out and with a limited cash. Spend all that money on your marketing and get your product out as quickly as possible and sell as many as possible. Even if you have a patentable topology some clever designer will get round  it. What are you going to do, sue them? How big is your wallet? My mind is fading and I can't remember clearly how much I spent on legal fees but I give this example every so often. One guy used my trademark in US. I told him not to. He said sorry mate. Cost me around $5K. I could have spent that on one trade show and at least tripled it with the sales generated.

In terms of CE compliance (might be of help to Les too)  your product will require conducted and radiated testing. You can either do it in-house by investing into the right equipment (I would think that a modest investment of between $7-10K will get you a reasonably good set up for this) or you use an outside test house. They will charge you by per test.  If your product fails then you will be charged again. So using an external power supply minimises that risk.

+1  The vast majority of patents are expensive vanity wall paper (several of my nine were not money makers).

Another consideration for Euro market is lead free ROHS. Not mandatory yet in sane part of US. But it will be harder to get contract manufacturers and eventually parts that aren't ROHS, as most companies don't choose to maintain dual inventories and production runs.

JR

sahib said:

In terms of CE compliance (might be of help to Les too)  your product will require conducted and radiated testing.

Click to expand...

You don't even have to do that if you're reasonably certain your design is free from these, i.e. if you use a low-power linear PSU , no high-speed logic and no RF. The safety regulations also can be self-certified as long as you use components (mainly the xfmr and the XY caps) that are approved. We have certified a whole range of products base on that. One of the units was tested and passed the test; considering it used an almost identical PSU and general construction, we self-cert'd all the others.

Abbey, you are correct in saying that. In the absence of knowing what the product is it is difficult give exact opinion.

One has to asses the risks attached to the use of the product in question. This takes the application of the product into account. At the end of the day you can even carry out radiated emission test by a small hand held radio and the product might be a say simple paging system. In an office environment there is a very low risk in terms of product liability but in a hospital it is much greater.

Thanks for the helps so far guys.

The product is a 1RU or 2RU digital audio break out box.  TCP/IP protocol connectivity with digital and analog ins and outs.
Another forum member is designing the I/O part of this.  The IP protocol is used is Dante, from Audinate.

The design for the I/O is nearly completed.  I'm actually working a NDA with the other member here so we can get into the interfacing with Dante.

Power supply is going to entirely depend on the I/O side of this requires.

The Dante OEM card requires 3.3VDC.

I have an OEM company that offers SMPS modules.  But the price is not the best.  If you guys have any recommendations, it would be greatly appreciated.

Hopefully this is extra info will clarify the scope of the product a little more.

Thanks

> SMPS modules.  But the price is not the best

That's no clue at all. 7 Watts? 700 Watts? $3.95? $39.95? Ten? Ten thousand?

Yes, I realize that this is product info leak. If you have found a market for 10,000 units of 700 Watt TCP/IP drivers (HOT ethernet?), SOMEone else may start thinking and beat you to market. OTOH, 12V 0.1A AC wall-warts(*) will feed most audio front-ends, or relays, or holiday lights, yawn.

(*) Of course in time those passive AC wallwarts will be banned as vampire-loads. So whether you can use a few until laws change, or need to go high-tech from the start, says some about your region and time targets.

In addition to PRR's comment, I don't know what you mean by expensive but off-the-shelf external power supplies with dual and triple output are cheap even in single quantities.

Your product is mixed signal and includes oscillator. You have to look into conducted and radiated emission. For conducted  (if) you have an external power supply you can hide behind it. For radiated in that sort of power levels you'll have no concern with all metal case.

One more important point on the psu. If you have an on-board power supply that radiates sufficiently large heat then you have to provide ventilation on the case, most suitably by means of perforation immediately below and above where the heat is generated (so that the heat is extracted without sweeping through the rest of the internal components). This is a compromise in terms of EMI. So the external psu eliminates that completely. Also look at it from the cost point of view. Perforation is another operation and will cost you. Say you are getting a batch of 100 case manufactured, I can guarantee that it will save you at least 4 bucks per case, 400 bucks in total. Not to be sniffed at.

In terms of certification I won't repeat what Abbey said but at the end of the day it all comes down to what proof you have in hand for the product's compliance when requested.

If the oem modules you are using are already agency approved and registered that should save you the cost of some testing (not all).

Also look at the application data from the oem component makers as they should point you in the right direction (hopefully).

JR

I've been doing some tests already with these modules.
Here is the website. 
www.xppower.com

I have to double check which model I actually have.  but I believe it is this one:
http://www.xppower.com/orderPriceList2.php?seriesid=100526&groupid=100025&catuid=1&lang=EN

I'm also trying to develop a modular PSU based on these little modules so everyone here in the forum can use them for their products.  Therefore making a modular SMPS kit.  All of these modules are already agency approved.  So I figured it would be easier to implement.
Fabio has been testing the first samples I got from XP Power.  He said he was getting a little bit of noise at very high frequencies, but he said he needed to test it a little further.
If anyone else is interested in helping with this PSU thing, I'll gladly try to get samples for testing purposes.
Needless to say, I'd make the PCB completely available for the forum.

I appreciate all the help so far.

I have checked the products on the link but they do not have really usable outputs for most of the audio stuff that the forum deals with. You mention designing a PCB. I am assuming that you are using the (off -the-shelf) switch mode module to replace the transformer/the brute rectification and adding linear after it. If so, then you will still require compliance because you are creating a new product.

hi Sahid,

What do you mean exactly by, " they do not have really usable outputs for most of the audio stuff that the forum deals with.".
I saw some little modules that were offering 24V at 2A output.  My idea was to use 3 modules, for + and - 24V and a 48V.
Than adding linear regulators to drop to desired voltages, like 16V and etc.

Just asking out of ignorance, since I'm not sure if there are some other specs that makes them unusable.

If anyone knows of another OEM supplier, I'll gladly look into it.

thanks
Gil

You were probably thinking of these;

ECP40US24 85-264 V 24 V/1.67 A

ECP40US48 85-264 V 48 V/0.84 A

I don't think there will be any financial benefit in this application. Nor will there be any on the design side.

1. You have to clean up the outputs of the switch mode (there is already a discussion going on in the drawing board). So you will need filtering.

2. You will still need heatsinking for the linear regulators.

3. Three switching psus will occupy much greater space than a transformer.

4. You'll be jumping off a hot water of transformer magnetic interference but jumping straight into a fire of switching noise x 3.

5. Will require overwhelmingly more safety precautions.

6. I bet it will be more expensive.