Author Topic: 3P system into 1P  (Read 487 times)

mata_haze

  • Member
  • Posts: 755
  • Back in London!
    • www.vintage-productions.com
3P system into 1P
« on: July 29, 2012, 07:40:03 AM »
hello evrybody,
my knowledge on 3 Phase systems it's quite little but nevertheless I am trying to figure out the following:
Let's assume I am in need of evenly balance a 3P system (not sure if Delta or Star)in a studio that takes approximately 21KVA (spread across 3 phases,so 7KVA each) and I was wondering if there is a way to connect a transformer which has a 3P primary that can deliver a single phase 220V at the secondary so I can connect the console across the 3 phases and balance it out.

I have done research and found the following thread which is quite interesting:
http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/27383/Three-Phase-to-Single-Phase-Transformer

reply #15 it's the one that made me think if it is correct or not, can anybody chime in and spread some light on the subject?
I have emailed also Airlink Transformers in UK I'll see what he says.

Best,
Mattia.


squib

  • Member
  • Posts: 208
  • Australia
    • http://www.proharmonic.com
Re: 3P system into 1P
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2012, 08:13:32 AM »
you got a console that draws 21 KVA?

mata_haze

  • Member
  • Posts: 755
  • Back in London!
    • www.vintage-productions.com
Re: 3P system into 1P
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2012, 02:39:14 PM »
you got a console that draws 21 KVA?

nope it's a studio and by using multiple transformers I will achieve galvanic isolation from the mains and I will balance the loading.
well this is the idea at least!

EDIT- I should have explained better in the first post: the idea is to use multiple transformers for the various loads: 2 consoles, audio gear, lighting, appliances and so on...

Mattia.

mjk

  • Member
  • Posts: 143
  • Eureka, CA
    • Redwood Coast Music and Studio Blade Electronics
Re: 3P system into 1P
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2012, 08:39:34 PM »
hello evrybody,
my knowledge on 3 Phase systems it's quite little but nevertheless I am trying to figure out the following:
Let's assume I am in need of evenly balance a 3P system (not sure if Delta or Star)in a studio that takes approximately 21KVA (spread across 3 phases,so 7KVA each) and I was wondering if there is a way to connect a transformer which has a 3P primary that can deliver a single phase 220V at the secondary so I can connect the console across the 3 phases and balance it out.

I have done research and found the following thread which is quite interesting:
http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/27383/Three-Phase-to-Single-Phase-Transformer

reply #15 it's the one that made me think if it is correct or not, can anybody chime in and spread some light on the subject?
I have emailed also Airlink Transformers in UK I'll see what he says.

Best,
Mattia.

I was compelled to sign up on that site just so I could comment in that thread.

Obviously no one has ever tried any of this nor even thought it through.

The diagram in post 15 is wrong on so many levels. If you connect a 3 phase power source to a single core with 3 windings as shown it will act like a dead short but for the DCR of the windings and the leakage inductance of the core. If you follow the text instructions and use a split core transformer with coils wired as shown you get zero output.

If you try to use a Scott T-connection with the outputs in series as some obliquely suggest you don't get even loads on the 3 phases coming in...

The  short answer is no, there is no way to load all 3 phases evenly with only a single phase load using only a transformer. You need some heavy duty storage like a rotary converter or some kind of storage + switching system.

mjk

  • Member
  • Posts: 143
  • Eureka, CA
    • Redwood Coast Music and Studio Blade Electronics
Re: 3P system into 1P
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2012, 08:56:40 PM »
you got a console that draws 21 KVA?

nope it's a studio and by using multiple transformers I will achieve galvanic isolation from the mains and I will balance the loading.
well this is the idea at least!

EDIT- I should have explained better in the first post: the idea is to use multiple transformers for the various loads: 2 consoles, audio gear, lighting, appliances and so on...

Mattia.

Multiple transformers are fine, but you just need to balance your individual loads across the 3 phases coming in to some reasonable tolerance. If it's not your generator and you're on public mains you don't have to worry as much  ;)

The need for balance between phases is a little overstated these days. Here in Humboldt county I have worked with a lot of people's ...er... off-grid systems using 3 phase generators in the 30-80 KW range and I frankly don't see a lot of issues with moderately unbalanced loads. Fuel economy is hard to tell the difference, not much excess heating of the generator, no real issues that I could tell. Just don't go over 80% of rated load including power factor on any one phase.

PRR

  • Member
  • Posts: 6772
  • Maine USA
Re: 3P system into 1P
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2012, 01:36:44 AM »
Hire a qualified electrician!

Don't go trolling for advice on global forums. This stuff gets dangerous, in unexpected ways, and the dangers are treated differently in each country.

_Significant_ differences between US and UK electrical practices.

> various loads: 2 consoles, audio gear, lighting, appliances and so on...

Have you made an itemized list with power per device? Segregated audio, lighting, tea-pots, and heating/cooling?

WHY do you want 3-phase in the studio?? It can work. But considering all the problems of audio around just one phase, I would not want more phases!

Do you _pay_ for unbalanced loading?

Just because you have 3-phase at the meter or pole does not mean you have to use it. If there is a charge for unbalanced load, figure that charge against the higher base cost of 3p gear and the functional simplicity of 1-phase.

From where I sit (small US town), 21KW unbalanced (one phase) is NOT a big deal. My whole town is unbalanced 24KW loads! Aside from the airport, it is all 240V 100A house transformers. The power company runs 3-p along the roads and staggers the single-phase pole transformers 1-2-3-1-2-3... so their three phases tend to even-out. Where houses are close together, they don't run 3p on every street, one phase for the whole street, streets staggered to get balance.

OTOH: 21KW actual demand is a LOT of power in most buildings. And HEAT! 21KW would heat _three_ of my houses in a cold Maine winter. Either this is a large studio suite, a lot of peaky loads, or you are over-estimating.

3-phase is cheaper for long wires. It is great for motors over a few horsepower. At large powers 3p saves transformer iron, but 21KW is way down the list and a 1p might even be cheaper than 3 cores or 6 windings on a 3-leg core.

> achieve galvanic isolation from the mains

Speaking from US Code: you can't break the ground wire without going into code-sections that you do not want to get into. It is allowed for steel-mills and other very special cases. For ALL normal work, you will have a green wire running back to the dirt at the meter/pole. All touchable metal MUST bond to dirt in a prescribed way.

You can break the Neutral with a transformer. This allows local line and neutral to follow local ground closely, not jerking with other loads in the building or street.

Your most likely nasty "other load" is your fans and cooling.

What I would do, under US Code, assuming no prohibitive tariff for unbalance: use the existing 3-p (wYe!) breaker box, one phase (if possible) for cooling, another phase for all lights, kettles, office PCs and printers. I'd kick the fans on/off and watch Neutral against Ground(Earth). If just a few volts, I'd just put the audio loads on the third phase. If Neutral bounce were large, I'd obtain a single-phase 25KW transformer (230:230 for your use) and a 200A single-phase breaker box.

Sidebar: in the US a "single phase" box splits 240V CT to two 120V buses, 240V available across both. Not sure what I could do for a true 1-bus box. But some of your larger houses must use 100+A one-bus service, so you have the proper gear.

You also have the luxury of a high-Ampere Ring Main. Don't wire a Ring for a few concentrated loads, run a couple 50A-60A main wires to a couple rows of outlets in the studio. Each rack gets a 13A plug-fused power strip.

Hire a qualified electrician!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 01:42:06 AM by PRR »

mata_haze

  • Member
  • Posts: 755
  • Back in London!
    • www.vintage-productions.com
Re: 3P system into 1P
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2012, 05:42:48 PM »
All right, thank you guys for bringing me back to hearth.
I need to rethink some stuff and yes I will rely on a qualified elettrician but I have ideas and would like to see if they (somehow) can be applied in the real world.
one of these is balanced mains, which I have seen (or heard) in operation and the results are rather amazing...

In Italy you do have to pay for unbalanced loads unfortunately and also the maximum you can get from a single phase system is 10KW.
you also pay for cos-pi (I am not sure if it is written like this in english) and I am not sure how to go about that,since the loads are going to be very heterogeneous...
of course I could get multiple 1 phase meters for different section of the building, not sure if it is worth because of the fixed charges.

when I started working in studios in London we had a 6 studios complex on 3 phases, audio on 1, AC on the second one and lights and "dirt sockets" on the third. this ensured that there were no clicks or dirt coming down the audio lines (especially true with old AC units which had no inverter), thank you PRR for confirming this.
MJK thank you for your feedback on off-grid system. I am planning (in the long term) to put solar panels on but just for a feed-in tariff.


I guess I will probably do the same, it's a difficult thing to pull, I definitely need an electrician who understands about studios, unfortunately in Italy they are as rare as hens teeth....


Need to do more investigation...
ABSOLUTELY thank you for the feedback guys, I was hoping for something like this to put me back on track!

Best Mattia.

PRR

  • Member
  • Posts: 6772
  • Maine USA
Re: 3P system into 1P
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2012, 08:29:41 PM »
Sig says "London".... you are working in Italy??

> you also pay for cos-pi (I am not sure if it is written like this in english)

Probably "power factor", PF.

Simple loads such as motors draw a sine-wave of current but this is not necessarily in-phase with the sine wave of voltage. Typical motors pull peak current slightly after peak voltage, "lagging phase angle".

If the angle reaches 90 degrees (peak voltage at zero current and vice-versa) then no real power is consumed, but large energy is sloshing from generator to customer and back to generator, heating the transmission system and that is real power and real cost.

A loaded motor will have phase angle perhaps 5 to 45 degrees, drawing some real power to do its work and some slosh due to reactance, induction, and other issues. Nobody cares about a few window-fans; factories with hundreds of horsepower of motors can be very bad. It is economic to add huge capacitors to cancel the lagging phase and present a near-resistive load to the power company.

This could be a factor on your air conditioning, but that's considered in A/C design. Small units will run bad phase but are too small to warrant PF metering. I assume huge systems that might trigger PF penalties consider PF in design.

But most of your audio loads are DC power supplies. These historically did not draw a sine-wave of current, instead they draw two spikes of current per cycle. This is an issue in power systems, and sometimes a PF number is assigned. However especially in Europe, PFC (power factor correction) is common on all larger (and many smaller) switching supplies. You are unlikely to run into PF penalties with a studio.

> balanced mains, which I have seen (or heard) in operation and the results are rather amazing...

This means different things in different contexts.

In 3-phase power, the savings from running 3/4 wires is lost if most of the load falls on 2 wires. A large 3ph motor naturally pulls the same on all 3 phases. But lighting is usually 1 phase. Consider a 3-story building, lights on each floor to one of the three incoming phases. When all lights are on, load may be well balanced. In a recession, 2/3rd of workers laid-off and upper floors left dark, the load is seriously unbalanced.

But around audio geeks, there is a different concept of "balanced power".

The customer wiring must be grounded, so that when a 13,000 Volt distribution line falls on a customer line, the customer is not exposed to 13,000 Volts. The customer ground holds induced voltage low and the near-short soon clears (burns-out) the fault.

We universally ground one of the power wires. Usually the one called Neutral.

I will switch to talking 230V.

In normal house wiring, the outlet has one hole at "zero" Volts (relative to ground, conduit, concrete, steel, plumbing, etc) and the other is 230 Volts away.

This is equivalent to "unbalanced audio", guitar and RCA plugs.

We could, instead, use a center-tapped 230V winding. One outlet hole is at 115V and the other is 115V the other way. The load gets the full 230V. However each line is half the voltage (to ground etc) and in a cable the field from the two leads tends to cancel a few cm away from the cable. This is similar to XLR or TRS balanced audio lines.

This needs a specialized service transformer. (It may not be enough to re-wire a 0V-115V-230V winding, because the two 115V segments may not be exactly the same, and the stray capacitance will usually be different.) There is no call for plan this except around very sensitive audio-frequency systems. (Not even telephone, because 50Hz is below telephone response.) It is not actually banned by US NEC, but is so unusual that electric inspectors are baffled and would normally reject it. Most recent gear will take center-tap power, but older gear may have assumed a grounded pin, and occasionally some boutique gear is just wired wrong in a way that works fine with normal unbalancd power but burns-up other gear when balanced powered.

At best, I would use this at racks and console, with 2KW boxes, not general wall outlets.

mata_haze

  • Member
  • Posts: 755
  • Back in London!
    • www.vintage-productions.com
Re: 3P system into 1P
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2012, 03:47:21 PM »
Sig says "London".... you are working in Italy??

> you also pay for cos-pi (I am not sure if it is written like this in english)

Probably "power factor", PF.

Simple loads such as motors draw a sine-wave of current but this is not necessarily in-phase with the sine wave of voltage. Typical motors pull peak current slightly after peak voltage, "lagging phase angle".

If the angle reaches 90 degrees (peak voltage at zero current and vice-versa) then no real power is consumed, but large energy is sloshing from generator to customer and back to generator, heating the transmission system and that is real power and real cost.

A loaded motor will have phase angle perhaps 5 to 45 degrees, drawing some real power to do its work and some slosh due to reactance, induction, and other issues. Nobody cares about a few window-fans; factories with hundreds of horsepower of motors can be very bad. It is economic to add huge capacitors to cancel the lagging phase and present a near-resistive load to the power company.

This could be a factor on your air conditioning, but that's considered in A/C design. Small units will run bad phase but are too small to warrant PF metering. I assume huge systems that might trigger PF penalties consider PF in design.

But most of your audio loads are DC power supplies. These historically did not draw a sine-wave of current, instead they draw two spikes of current per cycle. This is an issue in power systems, and sometimes a PF number is assigned. However especially in Europe, PFC (power factor correction) is common on all larger (and many smaller) switching supplies. You are unlikely to run into PF penalties with a studio.

> balanced mains, which I have seen (or heard) in operation and the results are rather amazing...

This means different things in different contexts.

In 3-phase power, the savings from running 3/4 wires is lost if most of the load falls on 2 wires. A large 3ph motor naturally pulls the same on all 3 phases. But lighting is usually 1 phase. Consider a 3-story building, lights on each floor to one of the three incoming phases. When all lights are on, load may be well balanced. In a recession, 2/3rd of workers laid-off and upper floors left dark, the load is seriously unbalanced.

But around audio geeks, there is a different concept of "balanced power".

The customer wiring must be grounded, so that when a 13,000 Volt distribution line falls on a customer line, the customer is not exposed to 13,000 Volts. The customer ground holds induced voltage low and the near-short soon clears (burns-out) the fault.

We universally ground one of the power wires. Usually the one called Neutral.

I will switch to talking 230V.

In normal house wiring, the outlet has one hole at "zero" Volts (relative to ground, conduit, concrete, steel, plumbing, etc) and the other is 230 Volts away.

This is equivalent to "unbalanced audio", guitar and RCA plugs.

We could, instead, use a center-tapped 230V winding. One outlet hole is at 115V and the other is 115V the other way. The load gets the full 230V. However each line is half the voltage (to ground etc) and in a cable the field from the two leads tends to cancel a few cm away from the cable. This is similar to XLR or TRS balanced audio lines.

This needs a specialized service transformer. (It may not be enough to re-wire a 0V-115V-230V winding, because the two 115V segments may not be exactly the same, and the stray capacitance will usually be different.) There is no call for plan this except around very sensitive audio-frequency systems. (Not even telephone, because 50Hz is below telephone response.) It is not actually banned by US NEC, but is so unusual that electric inspectors are baffled and would normally reject it. Most recent gear will take center-tap power, but older gear may have assumed a grounded pin, and occasionally some boutique gear is just wired wrong in a way that works fine with normal unbalancd power but burns-up other gear when balanced powered.

At best, I would use this at racks and console, with 2KW boxes, not general wall outlets.

PRR I live in London but I work a bit everywhere, I am currently in Georgia ex USSR until october.
thank you for the precise and very detailed answer,Im going back to my notebook and put rectify some ideas using your explanation, I need to read your post a couple of times more though...

Best,
Mattia.