Vari Mu compressor question

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Val_r

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2004
Messages
306
Location
Naples, Italy.
Hi,

I've just built this schem of a Variable Mu compressor.
http://www.arrayedroots.com/images/varimuschem.gif

+B is 206Vdc.
The problem is that it cannot accept a line level signal without an audible (awful) distortion, it only accppts low level signals.
Probably it's a misbiasing problem.

The voltages at the anodes:
At idle (no signal flow)
V1 (6bq7a) = 75.19V
V2 (6CG7) = 52.6 V
V3 (6922) = 130.8V

With signal (compressing):
V1 = 87V
V2 = 100/105v
V3 = 117V

Any suggestion? Did anyone encountered the same problem?

Thanks,
Val
:cry:
 
Are you sure that you have the balancing trimmers for each stage adjusted correctly?

What sort of distortion is it ? Are you getting thumping sounds ? If this is the case it is the control signal bleeding through to the audio, because the balancing trimmers ar not set so they cancel this out.
 
Not sure about that particular OEP input transformer, but could it be that it is not rated to handle line level input? If you have a scope, inject a sine wave into the input of the compressor and check the waveform after the transformer to see if it's distorting there.
 
Hi, thanks for the update.

No, it's not the transformer, the wave is good at the grid, but it clips in the upper part only at the out of V1.

Balancing trimmers: I have set them so that voltages on the anodes of each triode are exactly the same. Is this the correct procedure? Anyway no luck with distortion.

I'm still thinking biases are not correct. Does anyone have the correct values for the voltages on the anodes? I've set +B at 206vdc, is that correct or should it be greater? (240 / 300 vdc)

Any advice?

Thanks,
Val

:cry:
 
Where did this plan come from? Who developed it? Is there any text description to go with it?

Is there any evidence that it "should" take full line level? I don't think it will eat more than 1V at the input grids. If that transformer is 1:4 step-up, the max input level is 0.25V and the input level at threshold should be around 0.025V, or -30dBm. The input attenuator would have to be VERY far down to take +4dBm inputs.

The B+ should not be very critical. 300V seems more likely, but that would not make such a big difference.

The input plates should rise very dramatically as limiting begins, nearly to the supply voltage.

What is the no-signal voltage on the threshold pot wiper? At the input grids? cathodes?
 
Hi,

The input transformer is a 1+1:6.45+6.45 with primaries and secs wired in series, giving 600ohms for the input and 25kohms for the output;

Voltages:
V1
Anodes 76.2V
Grids: -0.46v
K's: 0.23V

V2 (6CG7)
Anodes: 52.6V
Grids: 0.00V
Cathodes: 2.14V /1.98V

V3 (6922)
Anodes: 130.8V
Grids : +0.05V
Cathodes : +2.10V

Threshold pot:
wiper : 102.8V when in CCW position to 0V when CW

So actually it doesn't eat the +4dBm (1.228V)...
Any ideaS?

Thanks,
Val
 
Set the Output pot to maximum resistance.

Set the Threshold to the middle. That b give 10 or 12 volts at its wiper.

Set the Attack pot to minimum resistance. Set Release to position 2, 3, 4, or 5 (not the extreme settings).

Set the Input pot to minimum resistance.

Feed a line level signal. Increase the Input pot until you are just-barely limiting a few dB (2dB-6dB). Don't worry if the output is too strong or weak, we can trim that after we get the basic action figured out.

Under those settings (Threshold pot wiper about 10V, input just strong enough to get a little limiting) is it clean?
 
Hi, thanks for the update,

I've posted the pics of the scope at
http://www.arrayedroots.com/varimu/varimu.htm
I think it will help clarify.

Settings:
Output fully clockwise,
Input almost CCW,
Attack fully cw,
Release to 3
I've fed a sine wave @ 1KHz 1.2Vrms (+4dBm)
and barely raised input pot to achieve the limiting action.
As shown in fig. 1 scoping the grid of V1 (6BQ7A)

Threshold pot:
at middle position at the wiper I read 83.5V, to read 12V I must set it almost in full clockwise position, from there, as long as I decrease to the middle position, the wave is still clear at around 50/52V, then becomes clipped when in the middle position (83V), and remains essentially the same when going in the ccw position.

Limiting:
I read -2 dB when the threshold pot is at midposition (83V wiper and clipped wave fig. 3),
I read -7 dB when threshold pot is at almost fully CW (11V wiper, wave as shown in fig. 2).

What's wrong?

Respect,
Val
:cry:
 
Picture 2 is classic overload for this type gain cell. Sort of reverse crossover distortion. It means your input level is too high for this tube.

I note the plan says 6BC8 but you say 6BQ7. These two tubes are similar but not the same. The 6BC8 has more control range.

I suspect you don't want a 1:6 input transformer for "line level" inputs. On lesser tubes I have calculated 1:1 input ratio as the most I could use without distortion even at modest levels. You might even try changing the 1K at the input to 10K.

The voltages possible on the threshold pot seem awful large to me. Has this circuit been built before, or are you asking for help with a new design?
 
6BC8 6BQ7
Yes, I substituted with this because was the only one similar tube I could find.
I'm replacing the input pot with a 100k because 1k and 10k don't give enough excursion.

Today will try a 1:1 (wired in series 600ohm to 600ohm) input transformer and will let you know...

I have found this plan on the web, and I decided to build it on a pcb. I noticed that basically it is a copy of the old Disa 91n02 and Altec 436c, with different tubes, with the add of Attack and Release controls.

Threshold pot:
Yes, voltages at mid are too high, and I noticed that at 12V things work better.

This is the first time I'm building this comp.
Thanks for your help !!

Val
:roll:
 
I changed the input transformer with a 1:1, seems to go better.
Posted new pictures of the output.

This time the wave looks good until the Threshold pot is at 3/4, where I read 55.5V on it's wiper, and the meter signs -6dB of limiting (fig. 4). Again, when at midposition, wave is still clipped.

Any suggestion?

Thanks,
Val
:?:
 
Hi,

Changed the input resistors R18, R19 from 1k to 11k, and changed the bias resistors on V2 (6CG7) from 220k to 100k.
Things seem to work better now.
The new measured voltages at the tubes are:
At idle:

V1 (6BQ7A)
Anodes: 72.5V (184v under -5dB of limiting)
Grids: -0.43V
Cathodes: 0.21V

V2 (6CG7)
Anodes: 66.4V (81.4V under -5dB limiting)
Grids: 0V
Cathodes: 2.68V

V3 (6922)
Anodes: 128.5V (131.4V under -5dB limiting)
Grids: +0.04V
Cathodes: 2.20V

The sine wave is clean in both conditions.

Do you think these readings are ok?
What is the normal voltage excursion to read on the Threshold pot wiper? (actually I read 1.07V in cw position to 100.4V in ccw position).
Probably increasing R15 from 100k to 270k would help.

Any advice?

Thanks,
Val

:roll:
 
> basically it is a copy of the old Disa 91n02 and Altec 436c

With a few MAJOR differences. Which is why I asked if anybody had built one just this way. I just spent 20 hard minutes trying to reverse-design it, and my free opinion is that it can't work correctly as drawn.

The Altec would surely have fed the output transformer directly from V3 plates. This variant uses resistor and capacitor coupling. That allows use of a smaller transformer, but gives less output. Actually we know at a glance that this output stage can NOT make swings of one-half B+ at each plate, so it is absurd that the rectifier threshold control goes to B+/2. Without doing a complete analysis, I'd think the maximum clean plate swing is about 1/5th of B+, and the top of the threshold pot should be less than that. This will just about give +15dBm at the output transformer secondary, and much less than that after the output pad (and it isn't clear why you'd want an output pad).

Gain from V2 grid to V3 plate is 26, which seems awful low to me for an R-C coupled vari-gain stage. To reduce gain you reduce V1 current, which means when limiting is high the maximum output from V1 is very low. Often much less than one Volt, depending on the resistances and especially on the tube you use. That vari-gain tube is -critical-; you can't substitute "similar" tubes without considering their differences. And the important differences are in the very low current range that is not shown on a common 1/2-page datasheet. The 6BC8 would be a much better choice than the 6BQ7, even though the 6BQ7 is an excellent tube at high currents or for small signals (TV antennas).

If you must use 6BQ7: change V2 to something with more gain, 12AT7 or even a 6BQ7 or another ECC88. Change the V2/V3 feedback loop to give gain around 100. In any case, with this output stage, the top of the threshold pot should not be higher than about B+/5 (unless you revert to a proper transformer-coupled output stage). Lose the 1K series resistors on the output. If you really need an output pad, just wire the 1K as a pot (don't worry about the slight theoretical unbalance).

The maximum input at the grid of V1, in heavy limiting, is only about one volt for any of the small twin-triodes. So for reasonable limiting level, the input threshold is much less than a volt. You see that no step-up is needed. If you don't have a 1:1 transformer, indeed you will have to severely pad-down line inputs.

The A262A3E looks awful small for an output transformer. Note that the rated output at 30Hz is only 1mW (0dBm!). It may be +6dBm at 60Hz, a more typical power corner for most music, but limiters are usually expected to give +18dBm on peaks. It will work as an input transformer only if it is padded 10dB or 20dB; a 10K:10K transformer might have been a better choice for input.
 

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