power supply will eat up rectifier tubes?

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seavote

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May 31, 2006
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i'm planning on using this power supply to feed a 2 channel tube mic pre.(dual triad) it comes from pat morfords web site http://www3.telus.net/public/vintage1/power.jpg
while asking for advice as to what transformer I should use for this power supply the salesman, who seems sincere in trying to help me said the power supply was not "well thought out." with the 500uf/450volt caps in the circuit this circuit would "eat up rectifier tubes(12x4) at an alarming rate." I don?t know about circuit design (for the time being I just do what I?m told...schematic) so can others check out the circuit and weight in on the matter. Should I use a different power supply I?m open for suggestions and I happen to have a number of nos rca 5u4s and 5v4s if any one can suggest a power supply that will feed two channels of a mic pre. the pre amp is not online any where so i can not link to it. it was recommended by pat morford. i will gladly send the preamp schematic to anyone who needs to see the amp the ps will be powering. thanks from a newbie who needs your help. Thanks to anyone who voices an opinion.
 
Rectifier tubes have a maximum amount of capacitence that can follow them, 20 µF for the 12x4.You should be able to just change the two 500 µF caps to 20µF, maybe add another stage of filtering. Head into the Techs Library Meta, there is alot of info in there on this stuff if you feel like learning.

adam
 
[quote author="seavote"]pat morford[/quote]

Ah! He said the magic word!

3, 2, 1...

Peace,
Al.
 
[quote author="seavote"]pat morfords [/quote]
[quote author="seavote"]the salesman, who seems sincere[/quote]

I'm sure this asociation will drive mad CJ. :green: :green: :green:
I think he is already looking for his axe :twisted:

chrissugar
 
whoa. seems i've struck a nerve here. so i have to ask how much should it cost for 2 utc 0-10 input transformers and a mic pre schematic to use them in?maybe i dont know any better so when i heard utc trandformers i went for it. $65 U.S.
 
Thanks for the help. I?ll definitely go with two 20 uf. I?m learning plenty these last few months and I really try to find the answers to my questions on my own before posting. I?m at the point where I can look at a simple amp,pre, or mic and know what each section is and what it is doing, (sometimes how it is doing it.) but altering a circuit is beyond me at this point. So I do need some help on this. Could someone let me know if the 2 20 uf caps will be enough filtering for this circuit? This circuit will power a mic preamp and needs to be quit. Another filter section was suggested. I wouldn?t know where to place it in the circuit or what value caps to use. Can someone make some suggestions (schematic)? Thanks for any help
 
I would add another stage before that one, another 20uF cap and a choke instead of a resistor. I would just use a Fender choke, one used in the deluxe or the like. Abit of overkill but they only cost about $15, I think they are 8hr.

adam
 
thanks adamasd. i made up a revised schematic for the p.s. can i p.m. it to you or anyone who will take a look to see if i got what you were suggesting right?the choke just replaces the existing 10 k resistor,yeah? the additional 20 uf is placed in series between the choke and the 12x4 cathode. also would there be any problem using a 1n4007 as the diode. its the only one im familiar with. thx
 
i was also curious how quickly the 12x4 wouls last. are we talking only a few minutes then kaboom. days or could i get 6 months. pat morford the man who furnished the supply claims this supply with his tube preamp design sounds excellent. 12x4 are not a fortune. but yes it could get annoying changing them so often.
 
Moreford?
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Pat Moreford?
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ok. so if i say mention that name here i cant get any help? i get it. i give. no more that name. sorry for my ignorance. please ... a little help?
this forum has the most knowedgable people on it. i'm out of my league but if i go asking questions of my electronic peers i'll really be in trouble.
 
That looks just like the DynaPAS power supply with bigger cap values. Not a lot of thought went into it... um..... he meant no thought. :razz:

All kidding aside, I copied that PS for my first tube mic pre, and it runs fine. I've been using it steady for six months without replacing the 12X4. I bet it goes a long way further, too.
 
cool. i'm going to go with the 500mfs. got this ps free off the site andwas informed it was from the pas 2. 1n4007s are good for this circuit yeah?
 
The rectifier will warm up slowly so you don't really need to worry about surge current.

I would stick the stonger 5U4 in there just for the heck of it.
You will need to drop the heater voltage.
 
now you really want to confuse me. sounds good but i'm leaning toward the tried and true(12x4,make stereo pre) but now i'm already thinking about my next project. lets see what i know and understand. lets go with the 5u4g rca(some are black plate, does that make a big difference in overall sound or are the preamp tubes more responsible for sonic quaility?) i would drop voltage by using a different transformer ,yes? and most likely could use larger caps for filtering?(is the 5u4g a more efficient rectifier... less ripple?)
i have a triad r-29a trannie 6.3 volt 1.5a. only 230 volt 40ma on the high voltage wires (not the 300 v called for in schematic)would 6.3 volt fry the 5u4? make preamp noisier?
would i be able to power more than 2 channels with this substitution. i'd like to get as many channels as i can and swap out 12ax7, 12au7,7025 etc.
 
My guitar amp has a 6X4 (same basic tube I think, different filament), feeding an 80uF 450V cap. It hasn't eaten up any rectifiers yet. I'd be hesitant about using any larger cap though.

What you might try is a two-stage filter, with say 40uF in the first stage, then a dropping resistor and a couple of hundred uF in the second stage. That shouldn't hurt the rectifier any.

And yes, running a 5U4 on 6.3V will cook it in short order.

Peace,
Paul
 
5U4? How much current does he need? 6/12X4 can supply 60 or70mA, should be plenty for most pres. They are also cheap and plentiful, what benefits would he see by going to the 5U4?

For that triade power supply the 6X4 is perfect, even if you had a 5 Volt supply the 5U4 would be overkill. Although the 6X4 would eat up almost half of your heater supply, so you may want to switch to solid state rectification if you have more then 1A worth of heaters to run other the the rectifier.

To tell you anything more you will need to supply a schematic to what ever pre you are building.

adam
 
[quote author="CJ"]The rectifier will warm up slowly so you don't really need to worry about surge current.[/quote]

I never really thought about that, soft start recitifiers like the 6/12X4 should have no problems with large cap values then, there is no surge of current with these tubes. Do they just list max cap values in the data of these tubes out of habbit and continuity or are there reasons other then surge current to not have a large value cap after the tube?

adam
 
[quote author="seavote"]cool. i'm going to go with the 500mfs. got this ps free off the site andwas informed it was from the pas 2. 1n4007s are good for this circuit yeah?[/quote]

Yes, I used 1n4007s. CJ is right, you will need to drop the heater voltage. Mine is running two 12AV7s, so I used 1ohm 2W. If you are powering tubes that use less heater current, like 12AX7, 12AU7, 12AT7, you might need a higher value. Try 10ohm 2W and adjust if needed.
 
> soft start recitifiers like the 6/12X4 should have no problems with large cap values then, there is no surge of current with these tubes.

No, hollow rectifiers DO have trouble with over-size caps.

I'd much rather put 6V on a 5U4 (it'll last a good long time) than 500uFd on a 6X4. A good 6X4 can probably pull-up 80uFd thousands of times, and it is not impossible that it would survive 500uFd, but....

Look what happens when a tube rectifier warms up.

Cold, no current passes. Hot, lots of current passes at fairly low voltage drop.

But between cold and warm, there is a time when the cathode is just barely starting to emit a few electrons. At this moment, the AC voltage swings up to 500V, but the cap has no charge yet and is sitting at zero V. Those few electrons are ripped away from the cathode, slam into the plate at full 500V velocity. If this keeps up for long, the cathode is ripped apart. A small cap will quickly charge-up, a big cap will hold the output at low voltage until real damage is done.

As cathode heats up and cathode current rises, but output voltage stays low due to the huge cap, the current can become quite large. Until the cap charges, current is limited only by the voltage difference and the stray resistance. We strive to keep resistance low for good operating regulation. For a preamp, say 200 ohms in the winding. And say 500V off the transformer, cap only up to 100V: the peak current can be 400V/200= 2 Amps! Probably less due to rectifier self-resistance. However 1 Amp peaks are not uncommon when starting into a big cap.

Also: the electrons slam the plate at high velocity. Normal tube drop and electron velocity is 50V-100V; with a big cap the drop slowly falls from 500V. During that time the plate is dissipating 5 to 10 times more power than normal. It gets hot. A hot plate will emit electrons. Not as well as a good cathode. But good enough to start conducting backward; i.e., not rectifying at all, but just cooking both ways. This makes things hotter and you get "arc-back", which make instantly kill the rectifier or transformer (big arc-back will blow power fuses).

Equipment designers of old were only a little sharper than those today. They did sometimes use over-sized caps (though never 500uFd!). In self-defense, rectifier factories quietly beefed-up their parts: it was cheaper to do that than to argue with customers about careless designers.

If this design uses the stock Dyncao transformer (you can get them from TriodeElectronics), that tranny had quite a high winding resistance. With large resustance the starting surge is, of course, lower, and maybe the 6X4 survives very nicely.

Anyway, the first filter cap rarely needs to be better than 1% ripple. Say 4V. Four sections of 12AX7 can't be sucking more than 10mA, confirmed because that 10K resistor makes no sense if we pull much more. 1,000uFd at 1A (1,000mA) gives around 1V ripple, so 10uFd at 10mA gives 1V ripple, and we only "need" 2.5uFd to give 4V ripple. Since caps are cheap and 6X4 can stand 20uFd or 40uFd, I'd make the first cap 20-40uFd and take the <1V ripple as a bonus.

> mic preamp and needs to be quit.

Yes, but brute-force is not the only way. A more elegant path is to start with a little ripple and reduce it in several steps.

How little ripple do we need? I'm not privvy to the schematic in question, how well it rejects ripple. But a pessimistic estimate is that supply ripple should be as low as tube noise. Tube noise is liable to be 2uV at the first grid, but that does not get B+ power. Tube gain is, say, 50, so the tube's self-hiss is 100uV at the plate. Triode stages without overall feedback have PSRR of about 2, so we could tolerate 200uV ripple at the B+ rail.

We have about 0.5V ripple at the first power cap.

0.5V/200uV= 2,500:1 ripple reduction needed.

If caps cost money, you usually get best economics by taking 10:1 reduction at a time. That says three more stages. Big caps are cheap, so we might take 30:1, even 50:1 per stage and not break the bank: 2 R-C stages.

We have a 10K resistor. Cut that into two 5K resistors. We need to be sure that the resistor from the first cap to the first BIG cap is big enough so that the rectifier does not gag on huge charging current: a 400V supply feeding a 5K resistor to a fat cap can only pass 400V/5K= 80mA, which a 6X4 can pass OK for quite a while. We then need a big cap that is about 5K/50= 100 ohms reactance at 100/120Hz.... 20uFd is 80 ohms at 100Hz, and will be fine. 40uFd costs so little more, we could do that instead, just for over-kill.

So a well-engineered plan is:

6X4-40uFd-5K-40uFd-5K-40uFd

This is roughly how the Dynaco did it. Worked for them. A phono preamp is just as susceptable to buzz as a mike preamp. Dyna actually spread the load over several filter stages: a full PAS has subsonic gain over 100,000 from end to end, and needs lots of power supply isolation to keep from motor-boating. No mike preamp needs that much gain.

There may be some audible benefit from having a BIG cap facing the amplifier. At least I like to do that. 6X4-40uFd-5K-40uFd-5K-500uFd seems like overkill to me, but I'm guilty of similar over-kill.
 
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