Questions on PCB making

[Ptownkid]

There's a direct chinese importer called "Harbor Freight" here in the U.S. that sells good cast iron tools criminally cheap. I walked into their store and bought this one new:
http://www.harborfreight.com/5-speed-drill-press-38119.html

That's exactly on of the models I'm talking about. Almost every drill press company has a model that looks just like that, because they all come from the same chinese manufacturer. Mine, which is branded Mastercraft from Canadian tire is identical to that one. I've had it for over 6 years no and it has drilled a ridiculous amount of holes.

 

[Ptownkid]

they should be learning how to do higher value work anyhow.

That's really the crux of it right there...there is far too much greed, laziness, and inefficiency in most North American industries. If they want me to spend my money here, then make a decent quality product, at mid-range price and I'm in.

I recently had two different companies quote on a job, both North American. We wanted a qty of 100 and sent the same docs to both. One came back at $29 a piece, the other at $105.....there's just a tiny discrepancy there.

 

[livingnote]

Best drill bits I've found in Europe are from Bungard, www.bungard.de - best AND cheapest
for that level of quality (if anyone finds something better do let me know).

They deliver them in packs of 10 you can mix and match, they're sharp as hell and last.

I get everything from them - cheapest source of sodium persulfate and most awesome PCB
material in town. Also for tinning: SENO costs arond 20€ for 1 liter, their SUR-TIN system
which is essentially the same costs (I think) 12.50€ or so for 2.5 liters.

Guess I can bring some stuff to play with along next time I'm in Switzerland ;-)

Wobbly Dremel is fine because it gives you play - it lets you drill holes dead center even
when you don't place the PCB perfectly. If the holes are etched the right way, the copper
will guide your wobbly right where it needs to be, an attribute you lose with a "better" drill.

 

[kato]

*** veer warning****
It is generally considered that increasing trade with a nation increases our influence with them. When Ho was just in Washington meeting with Obama, and US business leaders, he was questioned about human rights (twice) and made a conciliatory statement. While words are words and actions are actions, this appears to be some movement, in their position, in the right direction.

If you want to feel bad, feel bad for american workers who are no longer making the entry level drill presses, but they should be learning how to do higher value work anyhow. This is a natural pattern and at one time we were the cheap labor stealing jobs from Europe.

Yeah, I get that John.

I have no inherent problem with exploiting cheap labor markets while they still exist - I bought the drill press after-all.

But labor from an authoritarian dictatorship with no worker protections is at the extreme end of most american's ethical limits. It's not like cheap labor from India or Mexico. Hoo's concept of human rights is drastically different from ours. I know that Harbor Freight discount translates into 80 hour work weeks, rent deducted from employees pay whether or not they live in the factory supplied housing or not, and often cruel working conditions. As a human being, it's impossible to turn a completely blind eye to the reality I'm participating in.

I'm not disagreeing with you John, just clarifying my original statement.

 

[livingnote]

Oh btw vacuum cleaner works wonders:

Yeah cheap labor makes really cool songs

What ever happened to the golden rule?

 

[zayance]

How to get addicted  ;D, not a good one, but close to perfect, i left it a little too much in the bath, those tiny traces didn't like that at all  ., will change some things a tad in eagle, but this one will be working mouhahaha 8) 8)...
Still fine tuning, and waiting for the drill bits as we speak, nice offers on evilbay thanks Ptownkid, and i'll fine tune that with all your advices guys, thanks for that, will report back

 

[livingnote]

Oh good Lord, yes. Fun, isn't it?

"Wow haha total power over the PCB hahahaaaaa" (fetch straitjacket)

Do you mean "in the bath", like, "in the etch bath"?

Because errors like those, my first guess would be they happened during
developing, or during exposure.

But nice going, you're gonna kick ass at this I can see.

What kindofa system do you use?

 

[zayance]

Hey Lukas i need your wisdom Obiwan PCB  ;D, yes i was talking about the etching bath, well the prob i see is that my revealing bath is cold and when the water is warm all works better, that's why i left it a little too much, these  traces were ok but some others wont and i left it too much for th that's why.

System is the simplest, my friend had it for a 100 euros but taking dust and i couldn't let that happen. Just  a UV plastic case with four neons and a plastic aquarium, bubble sytem etc... A little motivation and voila.

Any good advices master are welcome  ;D 8) 8)

 

[Ptownkid]

Always etch in warm to hot water, works far faster for sure!

 

[zayance]

I wasn't talking about the etching temp, but the developping temp, warmer works quiker and cleaner, the prob is that i do these in cold place so....
But the eching bath temp is good, there is a warming resistance on it of course that i can regulate... 

 

[livingnote]

Aha yeah - developing in warm water can have its merits, but it can easily go out of
control because hungry warm NaOH loves thin traces. (patience is a baker's virtue )

I'll give it an educated guess. You didn't give it enough light and so the photoresist didn't strip
off properly in the developing bath (the revealing bath, cool word )

So, certain areas will take longer to develop, and certain areas will be over-developed
at that time, and by the time everything is developed enough, your overdeveloped
areas are doomed.

Another possibility is that your weight on the PCB was not evenly distributed and so
light got up in between the photopositive and the PCB. These are mere assumptions,
but seeing the result they'd be the first place I'd look (this kinda thing drove me crazy
more than I care to think).

Thing is - when your photopositive is excellent, you can run the light box (the exposer)
for very long with only positive results. When your exposure is good, you will not encounter
too many problems developing. When your developed photoresist is right, you will have
virtually no problems etching.

Here's a brief little as-cheap-as-possible method for getting industrial-grade results:

Photopositive:

Use heat-stabilized polyester printing medium, like Signolit SL-Z. This stuff doesn't distort
in the heat of the laser printer, and is very hard to tear or crinkle.

Next, use toner blackener once you've printed it out. You can get this at Conrad for super
expensive or you can get it (haw) where Conrad gets it.

Spray this stuff on and then let it dry (don't blow to accelerate the drying, just let it lie around).

Print and spray two in total and then use tape to stick them together so that they align perfectly.

Now you should have an ultra-black photopositive that really is crisp and clear.

Thanks to this, you can now bombard your PCB with a whole lot of light and nothing will happen
to the traces, and your developing will be a total breeze.

Next, develop not with NaOH, but with Bungard's "Special Developer" - reason: It won't attack
unexposed photoresist for a long time, while NaOH will. NaOH is difficult to dose right and work
with, but you can get good results if you get the hang of it. For NaOH last I remember it was
7g/Liter @ room temperature.

Then get yourself a spray bottle so you can use water to spray away developed resist that's still
attached, or hook up (even better and fun) your shower with a Gardena water pistol.

(You want the gun variety, not the little shower with 3 different settings).

If you do install a Gardena in your bathtub, I promise you will suddenly be amazed how you
ever lived without one. Like, what about cleaning out that trash can? And that big pot in the
kitchen where you have to scrub so long... (HaHAAAAAA...PSCHHHHHHHHHHHHH).

Yeah, anyway

That's about it really. If something's not clear, let me know.

 

[Ptownkid]

You had mentioned about that sites great pcb selection...but i can't find any on there.

 

[livingnote]

You mean Bungard? If so, they're under "consumables" -> Presensitized boards:

http://bungard.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=25&Itemid=76&lang=english

They're essentially an industrial supplier, but they take small orders too. Basically, if you're in Europe,
get signed up with them and then just get everything there, because anywhere else you're more likely
than not gonna wind up with their stuff but significantly more expensive.

Not sure if they do international, though...is there anything similar in the US or Canada? I might be
moving to Florida and it would be great to have a good supplier here.

 

[zayance]

I'll give it an educated guess. You didn't give it enough light and so the photoresist didn't strip
off properly in the developing bath (the revealing bath, cool word  )

So, certain areas will take longer to develop, and certain areas will be over-developed
at that time, and by the time everything is developed enough, your overdeveloped
areas are doomed.

Spot on.

THANKS MASTER  ;D ;D all infos are understood and will be applied on next time.
Bungard that's exactlly the PCB brand i used, he had a pack of those, and from what i read they are excellent stuff, and i think that helps rookie to achieve something descent to get you rollin  8) 8) 8)


In France Gotronic sells Bungard PCB's:

http://www.gotronic.fr/catalog/circuits/plaques.htm

 

[livingnote]

You're making me blush    It's a beautiful craft, isn't it?

I was thinking they were Bungard, they have this "feel" to them. The surface
beneath the copper is an impeccable matte.

Vernis spécial permettant d’obtenir des résultats remarquables.

I'll say.

There's two more things that are very awesome that you can do. The one is:
get an old HP LaserJet 5000N from ebay. Monster monster and does awesome
true-1200dpi PostScript level 3 with total toner mode. You can get one often
for like 120€ because so many government institutions just throw them out.

Also it does A3. Harr.

Another thing is: You can pimp your etchtank for cheap but effective. What you
do is you pull out your bubbly thing and replace it with a couple of Basswood
aquarium diffusers (you won't believe all the stuff I tried out) like if it fits
three or four Sander No.3 blocks tied to a strip of PCB and then immersed.

Yeah wood. Who woulda thought?

Caveat here: You need to connect each diffuser to its own line, and you want
to have a pump that's as powerful as you can afford. Buy pumps specifically
for their pressure, not just for how many liters/hour they can pump. Most
standard aquarium pumps won't be powerful enough for this.

There's the Sera Air 550R which can suffice, then there's the Eheim 400 (both
of which I have in use) and if you really wanna get medieval (which is what I
personally would buy next) there's the hiblow monster (http://www.hiblow-usa.com/).

If you get this right then you can pump your tank absolutely full with billions
and billions of ultra-micro-foam-bubbles that get into every single little nook
and cranny you can imagine, and produce this:

http://www.livingnote.com/prodigybilder/microSh1t.jpg

Because in a sense you get the best of both foam and immersion etching, at
a very small investment. Also, your etch process is accelerated because of the
additional agitation.

 

[zayance]

Man you got me hooked!! Your pimping idea is great! That's will be done for sure "if possible", tiny bubbles haha i can't wait  ;D, this is what he has, well looks like it, it's the cheapest one, and i'm using ferric chloride, but he has sodium persulfate bottles, but this one won't accept if i get it correct, and i'd like to switch to Sodium in future uses, what do you think???

http://www.gotronic.fr/catalog/circuits/graveuses.htm

Caveat here: You need to connect each diffuser to its own line, and you want
to have a pump that's as powerful as you can afford. Buy pumps specifically
for their pressure, not just for how many liters/hour they can pump. Most
standard aquarium pumps won't be powerful enough for this.

There's the Sera Air 550R which can suffice, then there's the Eheim 400 (both
of which I have in use) and if you really wanna get medieval (which is what I
personally would buy next) there's the hiblow monster (http://www.hiblow-usa.com/).

So if i get it correct, you need two of those pumps, each one has 2 Out... (well if i can go for four, wich i doubt for this Plastic aquarium, but there are smaller Sanders, or just upgrade the Aquarium  : get me thinking)

 

[livingnote]

Sure you can use Sodium persulfate in those etchtanks, it's great.

I on the other hand have never tried Ferric in one of those. So that works too?

Back when I was reading the instructions, they were saying "do not use Ferric in
this tank", but hey, if it works anything's game  ;D

I started with the little one too, then got the big one, and then did something I should
have done right from the start: I built one.

The big ones you can buy (I had the ISGRAV2) are clear acrylic which begins to break
after about a year or two, and if you look at it what you get is a mediocre pump, a
thing to put a balcony flower pot in (it really is) and some plastic with a heater and
an aerator you'll replace anyway.

So what I did next was to go to my local glass dude who cuts windows and stuff
and had him cut some 5mm glass to my measurements according to the one I had.

Only, I made it bigger, because if you wanna fill an entire 19", it's juuuust not quite
big enough, which is a bummer.

So you get 3 panes of glass 50cmx35cm, and then 1 pane like 51x15cm and 2 panes
35x15cm, respectively. This gives you, for the cost of only one extra glass pane, a
double etchtank that's big enough for everything. You might even go for 40cm
instead of 35 (yes on occasion I wish I had, ask Viitalähde ) Heck, probly costs the same.

For 100€, he made me two of these monsters, so 2 complete machine bodies à 2 tanks.

Then you go out and get silicone (really good aquarium silicone, not the cheapo stuff)
and you silicone it all together. You can use stacks of coins to keep the distance between
the 3 big glass panes and the work surface.

You can make the tanks about 3-4cm thick each, might wanna check how big they
have to get so you can comfortably fit those Sander wood blocks in. At 30cm liquid
depth, each cm cuvette thickness will be 1.5 Liters of acid (one Fanta bottle, haha).

So now you're at 112€ approx. for 2x the capacity, way bigger and lasts forever,
plus you have two entire machines so that's 4x the capacity (haw).

Of course you can build 4 tanks into one machine if you feel funny that way.

Then you get 2x heating stick but not "Réglage de la température de 20 à 32 °C."

You want 48°C, haha.

So you get this here:

http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/530425/HEIZUNG-FUeR-530336-150-W-1185/2512150

Type Speed, distributed by ProMa.

Which is only 150W, but it goes up to 50°C - most of the other ones they sell don't
because they're for aquariums and you don't want to cook your fish by accident

So now you can get two of them for the double tank, then get yourself the right
pumps, and wood aerators, and silicone hoses and all, you're also up to about 250 €
but yours is waaaaaaay cooler and lasts for ever.

Then all you need is a thermometer, and you're ready to go.

 

[zayance]

Dude you rock!!!!!  8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) I'm gonna sleep on that, calculate the bill and will work my way on building one, nice stuff, if i have some questions on the build process i'll post here to let you know.

Danke Schoen  8) 8) 8)

 

[livingnote]

Bitteschön  

Oh now that I think about it, how about one double-tank etch machine, one double-tank post-etch
rinse thing and then a 6-in-one tank for developing and post-etch processing?

The reason for a separate acid rinse thing is that for one thing, it's a total mess with the blue stuff,
and for another, it's illegal in Germany to flush boards with fresh water if they haven't been rinsed
in two distinct baths (Wasserhaushaltsgesetz). So then what do you do with your toxic rinse bath
water? Well, you...use it to make fresh etch bath And you throw the used etch bath into the toxic
waste at the recycling center.


So then you have two tanks like

|——————————————————————————————————————————————————|
|  1. Etch I                                       |
|——————————————————————————————————————————————————|
|  2. Etch II                                      |
|——————————————————————————————————————————————————|

And two tanks like

|——————————————————————————————————————————————————|
|  3. Rinse I                                      |
|——————————————————————————————————————————————————|
|  4. Rinse II                                     |
|——————————————————————————————————————————————————|

And then you have six tanks like

|——————————————————————————————————————————————————|
|  5. Developer Solution                           |
|——————————————————————————————————————————————————|
|  6. Stripping Solution 20g/l NaOH                |
|——————————————————————————————————————————————————|
|  7. Fresh Water Alkaline Rinse Bath              |
|——————————————————————————————————————————————————|
|  8. Fresh Water Acidic Rinse Bath                |
|——————————————————————————————————————————————————|
|  9. 20% HCl Solution for Deoxidizing Copper      |
|——————————————————————————————————————————————————|
|  10. SUR-TIN Solution for Immersion Tinning      |
|——————————————————————————————————————————————————|

So with this thing you don't need all these photo-darkroom-style trays anymore that splash around,
instead you have six individual vertical cuvettes filled with everything you need. Both the developer
solution and the stripping solution are alkaline, so you can rinse them in the alkaline bath, and the
HCl and SUR-TIN are acidic so you can rinse them in the acidic rinse, and you never run the risk of
carrying over chemicals from one tank to the other too much, and you don't have to bend over your
bathtub, which is where most of your photo-style trays end up in the end because they're making
such a mess because of their splashing around.

Now that would be luxurious and compact, harr. The HCl bath neutralizes all the residual alkaline from
stripping while removing oxides so you have a perfectly prepared board for tinning, which then you dip
into the fresh water for acid rinse so that the HCl doesn't mingle with the H2SO4 in the SUR-TIN.

This is how the second-largest Bungard lab machines are set up, btw. - Vertical serial tanks one right
after the other so there's no mess. The only difference is that they have a pump and spray column installed
in the rinse bath, which turns it into a kindofa rinse shower rather than a bath, which is cool too.

 

[kepeb]

sounds like a marketable proposition
+1 for 'livingnote etch solution' kit in the white market