Replacing A Motorcycle Battery With A Capacitor
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Be sure to paralle with a small film cap for high RPM.
JR
JR
SonsOfThunder
Well-known member
Nice one, JR!
You'll need a cap about the size of the battery. :green:
Could you be a bit more explicit about your goal here?
You'll need a cap about the size of the battery. :green:
Could you be a bit more explicit about your goal here?
SSLtech
Well-known member
If you mean to start the mike from the capacitor, (instead of just using the cap to smooth out the pulses from the alternator, which the battery usually does) then you will need a cap MUCH bigger than the battery.
In fact, probably bigger than the bike.
Then there's the fact that it won't work easily or reliably as a straight swap.
A battery produces power at an almost absolutely constant voltage as it discharges, until it reaches a point of depletion where it can no longer efficiently produce electricity.
A capacitor discharges asymptotically, losing most of its charge right away, and the rest smoothly falling off at a reducing rate of decay.
A typicallt-loaded starter motor needs to be at its peak power, which for efficiency and robustness needs to be delivered CLOSE to its peak voltage, for the duration of the start period.
There's the possiblility that you could use a CV voltage converter on the output of the cap, to trade current for volts, but the drain/dropoff rate from the cap is accellerated, since as the cap voltage falls, more juice is sucked out , and the POWER drain is held constant. Such a thing would also be large, fairly heavy (almost like a battery) and in addition to the capacitor.
If you're serious about this, buy a bike with a kickstart. -You'll need it.
Keith
In fact, probably bigger than the bike.
Then there's the fact that it won't work easily or reliably as a straight swap.
A battery produces power at an almost absolutely constant voltage as it discharges, until it reaches a point of depletion where it can no longer efficiently produce electricity.
A capacitor discharges asymptotically, losing most of its charge right away, and the rest smoothly falling off at a reducing rate of decay.
A typicallt-loaded starter motor needs to be at its peak power, which for efficiency and robustness needs to be delivered CLOSE to its peak voltage, for the duration of the start period.
There's the possiblility that you could use a CV voltage converter on the output of the cap, to trade current for volts, but the drain/dropoff rate from the cap is accellerated, since as the cap voltage falls, more juice is sucked out , and the POWER drain is held constant. Such a thing would also be large, fairly heavy (almost like a battery) and in addition to the capacitor.
If you're serious about this, buy a bike with a kickstart. -You'll need it.
Keith
Actually the bike *does* have a kickstart.
People have been running these bikes without batteries for a bit now. I believe there are separate taps for the coils and the other electronics. I was trying to just put a cap after the regulator to smooth out the regulator to the lights/gauges while running but it doesn't want to fire for some reason... I have a decent bruise on my inner ankle to prove the efforts.
I've tried this on a bike forum, and all I got was:
"buy a bat-pac"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BAT-...005QQitemZ150118024432QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
Of course I'd rather build one myself and understand what's happening to my bike.
I'm guessing there might be a zener and/or resistor in there along with a capacitor. Why do I have to modify *everything*? :wink:
People have been running these bikes without batteries for a bit now. I believe there are separate taps for the coils and the other electronics. I was trying to just put a cap after the regulator to smooth out the regulator to the lights/gauges while running but it doesn't want to fire for some reason... I have a decent bruise on my inner ankle to prove the efforts.
I've tried this on a bike forum, and all I got was:
"buy a bat-pac"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BAT-...005QQitemZ150118024432QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
Of course I'd rather build one myself and understand what's happening to my bike.
I'm guessing there might be a zener and/or resistor in there along with a capacitor. Why do I have to modify *everything*? :wink:
Nothing fancy. It's my first bike restoration/rebuild though, and I wouldn't mind trying out some modifications.
This bike was given to me by a friend so he could use my back shed for a while. Total cost to me sofar: $90
Top Speed: @75 before it vibrates apart. Yes, it literally starts vibrating apart.
Size: 398cc
Model: 1979 KZ400 LTD
Gas Mileage: 56
New gaskets, sprockets, paint, and wiring.
The real answer is I don't know. I vaguely recall a trick like that for racing bikes. The cap wouldn't deliver as solid a voltage as a battery but better than nothing. Perhaps fabricate a smaller battery stack out of some rechargable cells?
You can make some in circuit measurements after you try it but you may need to go up to 25V capacitors and I'd start with at least several thousand uF. Perhaps a low impedance (high ripple current) cap series. Measure the DC and AC (ripple).
The cap will not a battery make, but may give a hotter spark if running off standard Kettering type ignition coils or even CDI, than no battery at all. Another consideration That I have no clue about is what is the relationship between crankshaft rotation and alternator/generator output, which could make a significant difference in effectiveness of capacitor smoothing.
My limited history with bikes involved only human starter motors, but I did put an after market Hall effect ignition system on my old RD400. I doubt it would be very happy with a lot of ripple on the power, but conventional ignition systems might not be very sensitive, other than less average voltage means less intense ignition spark.
JR
PS: Another one of my never executed design ideas was electronic ignition timing that was based on time before TDC rather than degrees. I always felt like mechanical ignition timing was like a stopped clock (correct 2x a day). Of course to do so would require prediciting the future so timing would literally be after the last TDC rather than before the next. During rapid acceleration you would need to crank in some lead, but on a per cycle basis could be less severe than mechanical lead. A funny quirk of my old hall ignition is that I could get my two stroke running backwards. They ended up modifying the rotor with two magnets to prevent that, but at the cost of less dwell angle to charge the coil. Making such an ignition now with a small micro would be trivial but back in the '70s when I was messing with this I'd be dealing with crude one shots and such.
You can make some in circuit measurements after you try it but you may need to go up to 25V capacitors and I'd start with at least several thousand uF. Perhaps a low impedance (high ripple current) cap series. Measure the DC and AC (ripple).
The cap will not a battery make, but may give a hotter spark if running off standard Kettering type ignition coils or even CDI, than no battery at all. Another consideration That I have no clue about is what is the relationship between crankshaft rotation and alternator/generator output, which could make a significant difference in effectiveness of capacitor smoothing.
My limited history with bikes involved only human starter motors, but I did put an after market Hall effect ignition system on my old RD400. I doubt it would be very happy with a lot of ripple on the power, but conventional ignition systems might not be very sensitive, other than less average voltage means less intense ignition spark.
JR
PS: Another one of my never executed design ideas was electronic ignition timing that was based on time before TDC rather than degrees. I always felt like mechanical ignition timing was like a stopped clock (correct 2x a day). Of course to do so would require prediciting the future so timing would literally be after the last TDC rather than before the next. During rapid acceleration you would need to crank in some lead, but on a per cycle basis could be less severe than mechanical lead. A funny quirk of my old hall ignition is that I could get my two stroke running backwards. They ended up modifying the rotor with two magnets to prevent that, but at the cost of less dwell angle to charge the coil. Making such an ignition now with a small micro would be trivial but back in the '70s when I was messing with this I'd be dealing with crude one shots and such.
I put a hall sensor kit on my 78 GS750 in the early 80's. I do not like points.
Cars and bikes are so much better with engine management than when I started driving.
But before I did that I was thinking about a better cap for the points. I had read in a mag there was a high grade kit being sold with better points and a plastic film cap and the points did not burn as bad and you would get a better spark.
Ckeck the brake lines and other parts. Check the rear arm swing arm bushings for play. Do the tires have flat spots and have you had them balanced. You might not want to be on a bike that shakes at 75.
I friend let me try a mid 70s suzuki 750 3 cyl water cooled monster of a bike once 2 stroke with tuned pipes and a frame that moved with power that was scary
The electronics might not "like" just a cap IIRC a car alt might cause 40V spikes when switching the field windings. I seem to remember reading this in a NS app note. The battery helps clamp the voltage unlike a cap.
Cars and bikes are so much better with engine management than when I started driving.
But before I did that I was thinking about a better cap for the points. I had read in a mag there was a high grade kit being sold with better points and a plastic film cap and the points did not burn as bad and you would get a better spark.
Ckeck the brake lines and other parts. Check the rear arm swing arm bushings for play. Do the tires have flat spots and have you had them balanced. You might not want to be on a bike that shakes at 75.
I friend let me try a mid 70s suzuki 750 3 cyl water cooled monster of a bike once 2 stroke with tuned pipes and a frame that moved with power that was scary
The electronics might not "like" just a cap IIRC a car alt might cause 40V spikes when switching the field windings. I seem to remember reading this in a NS app note. The battery helps clamp the voltage unlike a cap.
SonsOfThunder
Well-known member
>>>Replace that heavy, unreliable, environmentally destructive, lead acid battery.
Gotta love that sales pitch. They forget to include, and kick start your brains out! I see what they are trying to accomplish now. Did you read their instruction? Does your bike have an alternator? If so, its not gonna work.
Keef, its more accurate to talk about the battery "storing" power rather than "producing" it. (That brings up a funny image...battery as producer..."that last electron was a bit off pitch, could we run that lyric again?" sorry!) The two biggest differences in performance of a cap vs batt is capacity and internal impedance.
The co. I work for talked to some guys years ago (before the advent of these jump start packs) about small hi-capacity capacitors, Evans. http://www.evanscap.com/ They called it a "cappatery". One idea they had was to use a cap about the size of a car batt, connect it to a partially discharged battery, let it charge up, and because the cap's internal impedance is so much lower than the batt, the combo would usually start the car.
Check this out:
http://www.batcap.net/
Gotta love that sales pitch. They forget to include, and kick start your brains out! I see what they are trying to accomplish now. Did you read their instruction? Does your bike have an alternator? If so, its not gonna work.
Keef, its more accurate to talk about the battery "storing" power rather than "producing" it. (That brings up a funny image...battery as producer..."that last electron was a bit off pitch, could we run that lyric again?" sorry!) The two biggest differences in performance of a cap vs batt is capacity and internal impedance.
The co. I work for talked to some guys years ago (before the advent of these jump start packs) about small hi-capacity capacitors, Evans. http://www.evanscap.com/ They called it a "cappatery". One idea they had was to use a cap about the size of a car batt, connect it to a partially discharged battery, let it charge up, and because the cap's internal impedance is so much lower than the batt, the combo would usually start the car.
Check this out:
http://www.batcap.net/
SSLtech
Well-known member
A cap is just like a flywheel. It stores energy. -Yes technically a battery also STORES energy, but it converts it to chemical energy and then "re-produces" it as electrical energy later on, by reconversion from chem-to elec.
Coils also store energy.
I'd expect an L/C network might work, -no? Series L/Shunt C, ...rinse & repeat.
I almost didn't really think that this thread really WAS for smoothing the alternator output, but apparently it is. -I concentrated on the starter thing, because I guessed (wrongly of course!) that was your focus. Good job, because I don't think that would be possible!
nice bike btw... I like that era of motorcycle even though I can never own or ride another... (long story!)
Most racecars used to use magnetos, and my old aircooled VWs used to all have generators. I did convert one to an alternator, but that one would have been MUCH harder to run sans battery!
I think you'd need to know the speed of the alternator (assuming you have an alternator) at idle, the peak output voltage of the alternator, and the current draw (lights on, brakes applied with the turn signal flashing, etc) in order to properly calculate the values needed, and I don't know how physically large they'd have to be in order to store enough energy to sustain the voltage through the charging dips... Most of these home-made things sold cheaply on ebay as 'miracle-cures' are frequently under-engineered, but who knows with this one?
Forget the Zener. You want to store energy, not waste it.
My thoughts are drawn to Series L/Shunt C filters... possibly multi-stage. To calculate the sizes involved, I'd have to defer to others more versed in physics and tech-math.
Batcap site looks like it is riding on the generally held misconception among modified-Honda-drivers with "trunk-fulla-amps" setups, that a capacitor boosts the voltage. -It also reduces the voltage, of course... "what it uses to fill in the valleys, it takes from the hills". -the you talk about the fact thet the big automotive amps usually have swtching inverter supplies inside, and they go glassy-eyed, and start saying things like "but this goes to eleven"... and you know that you've lost them!
Oh well, people don't often go broke by underestimating the intelligence of the general public...
Keith
Coils also store energy.
I'd expect an L/C network might work, -no? Series L/Shunt C, ...rinse & repeat.
I almost didn't really think that this thread really WAS for smoothing the alternator output, but apparently it is. -I concentrated on the starter thing, because I guessed (wrongly of course!) that was your focus. Good job, because I don't think that would be possible!
nice bike btw... I like that era of motorcycle even though I can never own or ride another... (long story!)
Most racecars used to use magnetos, and my old aircooled VWs used to all have generators. I did convert one to an alternator, but that one would have been MUCH harder to run sans battery!
I think you'd need to know the speed of the alternator (assuming you have an alternator) at idle, the peak output voltage of the alternator, and the current draw (lights on, brakes applied with the turn signal flashing, etc) in order to properly calculate the values needed, and I don't know how physically large they'd have to be in order to store enough energy to sustain the voltage through the charging dips... Most of these home-made things sold cheaply on ebay as 'miracle-cures' are frequently under-engineered, but who knows with this one?
Forget the Zener. You want to store energy, not waste it.
My thoughts are drawn to Series L/Shunt C filters... possibly multi-stage. To calculate the sizes involved, I'd have to defer to others more versed in physics and tech-math.
Batcap site looks like it is riding on the generally held misconception among modified-Honda-drivers with "trunk-fulla-amps" setups, that a capacitor boosts the voltage. -It also reduces the voltage, of course... "what it uses to fill in the valleys, it takes from the hills". -the you talk about the fact thet the big automotive amps usually have swtching inverter supplies inside, and they go glassy-eyed, and start saying things like "but this goes to eleven"... and you know that you've lost them!
Oh well, people don't often go broke by underestimating the intelligence of the general public...
Keith
SonsOfThunder
Well-known member
Keef,
Uhh... how does a cap work then... :razz: Just the chemicals are different, right? Basically yes, caps store voltage, inductors store current.
I think you are probably on to the thing: LC network sounds about right. Hook an o'scope to your motorsikle and take some measurements. :grin: CJ oughta be able to answer this one anyway. Where is that boy?
Actually, those guys really are using those as "batteries". Batcaps have been around a while and I believe that most of their product is actually very low impedance lead acid batteries. Truth of the matter is that the current demands in the big boys cars is so high that even regular batteries are nothing more than smoothing caps. :green:
I'm not arguing with them. This is what has paid my bills for the last 21 years. Sorry bout them coming by your house to wake you at 2 am though.
Uhh... how does a cap work then... :razz: Just the chemicals are different, right? Basically yes, caps store voltage, inductors store current.
I think you are probably on to the thing: LC network sounds about right. Hook an o'scope to your motorsikle and take some measurements. :grin: CJ oughta be able to answer this one anyway. Where is that boy?
Actually, those guys really are using those as "batteries". Batcaps have been around a while and I believe that most of their product is actually very low impedance lead acid batteries. Truth of the matter is that the current demands in the big boys cars is so high that even regular batteries are nothing more than smoothing caps. :green:
I'm not arguing with them. This is what has paid my bills for the last 21 years. Sorry bout them coming by your house to wake you at 2 am though.
Capacitors store energy as charge, inductors as magnetic field, and batteries as electrochemical energy.
The old lead acid battery is still pretty good at what it does, maybe just find a smaller one? Perhaps some of the new electric car battery technology is worth looking at.. There's probably lots of used laptop batteries for sale cheap but use at your own risk.
JR
The old lead acid battery is still pretty good at what it does, maybe just find a smaller one? Perhaps some of the new electric car battery technology is worth looking at.. There's probably lots of used laptop batteries for sale cheap but use at your own risk.
JR
bcarso
Well-known member
The aerogel supercaps are pretty awesome, but also awesomely expensive.
SSLtech
Well-known member
[quote author="SonsOfThunder"]Uhh... how does a cap work then... :razz: Just the chemicals are different, right?[/quote]
Not at all... (not sure if you're just kidding or if you really think that caps -even electrolytic "chemical" caps perform energy-form conversion.)
A small amount of the stored charge in a cap can convert to chemical energy, and this process is known as "dielectric absorbtion". However, if you look at an expensive capacitor tester, this property is on the list of "BAD" things to measure, along with leakage and ESR.
Basically it's a slower process than the purely electrostatic charge-discharge nature of the cap, and usually not at all linear, so materials which exhibit this to an excessive degree are never used for capacitors, in the same way, dielectric materials with excessive leakage are similarly useless.
I just posted the above so that anyone reading this who may not know the differences gets the "other" side of the story... you may well know this of course, but I'm thinking that it does no harm to clarify. :thumb:
Keith
Not at all... (not sure if you're just kidding or if you really think that caps -even electrolytic "chemical" caps perform energy-form conversion.)
A small amount of the stored charge in a cap can convert to chemical energy, and this process is known as "dielectric absorbtion". However, if you look at an expensive capacitor tester, this property is on the list of "BAD" things to measure, along with leakage and ESR.
Basically it's a slower process than the purely electrostatic charge-discharge nature of the cap, and usually not at all linear, so materials which exhibit this to an excessive degree are never used for capacitors, in the same way, dielectric materials with excessive leakage are similarly useless.
I just posted the above so that anyone reading this who may not know the differences gets the "other" side of the story... you may well know this of course, but I'm thinking that it does no harm to clarify. :thumb:
Keith
My '72 BSA had an optional battery.
Pure kick (and kick and kick and kick...) start.
Pure magneto spark.
The magneto had a low-voltage AC winding and a rectifier. At fast idle it made ~10V, rising with RPM. A 15V Zener, 50 Watt, bolted to the frame, simply loaded-down the winding at high RPM. Now you could add lights; mine even had turn-signal lamps.
All lamps were blown when I got the bike. New ones blew quickly. I traced this to a bad connection on the Zener, let the voltage rise past 20V.
Putting in a battery meant you could run the lights with the engine off, a possible advantage.
That was a "dirt bike", really an englishman's go-to-work bike, dimly descended from racing motorcycles which looked like bicycles with an oil-spill. Your Kawa is a FAR more refined machine. If you are not racing for trophies, why would you want to run without the battery it was made for? It isn't like cycle batteries cost much.
"Replace that ...., environmentally destructive, lead acid battery."
Lead batteries are NOT a big hit on the environment, because sumthing like 99% of all battery lead is recycled. "All" car/truck owners leave the dud behind when they get a new battery. Battery makers pay less for recycled lead than new lead. Perhaps motorcycle riders who chuck the dud in the woods are ruining the planet; the answer is to slip your dead lead back into the system rather than heave it behind.
"you're losing a lot of weight. (Battery is 4lbs.- Bat-Pac is 2.5oz)"
350lb bike, 200lb me, 25lb leather and helmet and boots, 15lb lock, 10lb fuel.... 600 pounds, going to 596.16 pounds... 0.6% drop in weight, 0.6% improvement in performance.... yeah, makes sense if you are finishing a 3 minute race one second behind the winner every time.
> it literally starts vibrating apart.
Then 0.6% and 1-second advantages are not your problem.
That Kawa 400 sure should do over 75 and should not shake apart. Compared to a Gold Wing it is a brutal beast, but it has power and was once well-assembled. It may be tedious to find every loose bit, and I'm not advocating excess speed in light of recent events in NJ. But it shouldn't be anywhere close to shake-apart at customary cruising speed.
Did you find the Bat-Pac site and read the teeny "Compatibility" section? "Brush type" isn't really the issue, though maybe it narrows the field enough to help. In my terms: a 1953 Chevy needs a battery to get the generator started and the sparks sparking; my present Briggs&Stratton doesn't.
Note also: NON-COMPATIBLE ... Kawasaki - KZ6501977 and older! If that means "650 1977", you may be OK, or Kawa may have improved the 650's dynamo in 1978 and used-up the pre-1978 dynamos on the cheaper 400 model for a couple more years. (Obviously this guy can't have one of every darn model ever made...)
If it works on "All magneto BSAs", then something's screwy. My beezer didn't need no capacitor, but sure as heck needed a voltage regulator or anything over 1,200RPM blew ALL the bulbs. But 1x1x2.5" is hardly enough surface area to throw-off the heat of a shunt-regulator and a good-size dynamo working at high RPM.
> a mid 70s suzuki 750 3 cyl water cooled monster of a bike once 2 stroke with tuned pipes and a frame that moved with power that was scary
That was the improved version? IIRC there was a 500cc 2-stroke 3-cyl air-cooled (sorta) before that. It would WHUP Honda's finest at 2/3rd the price, until it burned-up the middle cylinder, except many of these got embedded in trees or bridge abutments, either due to inexperienced riders or uncertain handling. (Or was that a Kawa?)
Pure kick (and kick and kick and kick...) start.
Pure magneto spark.
The magneto had a low-voltage AC winding and a rectifier. At fast idle it made ~10V, rising with RPM. A 15V Zener, 50 Watt, bolted to the frame, simply loaded-down the winding at high RPM. Now you could add lights; mine even had turn-signal lamps.
All lamps were blown when I got the bike. New ones blew quickly. I traced this to a bad connection on the Zener, let the voltage rise past 20V.
Putting in a battery meant you could run the lights with the engine off, a possible advantage.
That was a "dirt bike", really an englishman's go-to-work bike, dimly descended from racing motorcycles which looked like bicycles with an oil-spill. Your Kawa is a FAR more refined machine. If you are not racing for trophies, why would you want to run without the battery it was made for? It isn't like cycle batteries cost much.
"Replace that ...., environmentally destructive, lead acid battery."
Lead batteries are NOT a big hit on the environment, because sumthing like 99% of all battery lead is recycled. "All" car/truck owners leave the dud behind when they get a new battery. Battery makers pay less for recycled lead than new lead. Perhaps motorcycle riders who chuck the dud in the woods are ruining the planet; the answer is to slip your dead lead back into the system rather than heave it behind.
"you're losing a lot of weight. (Battery is 4lbs.- Bat-Pac is 2.5oz)"
350lb bike, 200lb me, 25lb leather and helmet and boots, 15lb lock, 10lb fuel.... 600 pounds, going to 596.16 pounds... 0.6% drop in weight, 0.6% improvement in performance.... yeah, makes sense if you are finishing a 3 minute race one second behind the winner every time.
> it literally starts vibrating apart.
Then 0.6% and 1-second advantages are not your problem.
That Kawa 400 sure should do over 75 and should not shake apart. Compared to a Gold Wing it is a brutal beast, but it has power and was once well-assembled. It may be tedious to find every loose bit, and I'm not advocating excess speed in light of recent events in NJ. But it shouldn't be anywhere close to shake-apart at customary cruising speed.
Did you find the Bat-Pac site and read the teeny "Compatibility" section? "Brush type" isn't really the issue, though maybe it narrows the field enough to help. In my terms: a 1953 Chevy needs a battery to get the generator started and the sparks sparking; my present Briggs&Stratton doesn't.
Note also: NON-COMPATIBLE ... Kawasaki - KZ6501977 and older! If that means "650 1977", you may be OK, or Kawa may have improved the 650's dynamo in 1978 and used-up the pre-1978 dynamos on the cheaper 400 model for a couple more years. (Obviously this guy can't have one of every darn model ever made...)
If it works on "All magneto BSAs", then something's screwy. My beezer didn't need no capacitor, but sure as heck needed a voltage regulator or anything over 1,200RPM blew ALL the bulbs. But 1x1x2.5" is hardly enough surface area to throw-off the heat of a shunt-regulator and a good-size dynamo working at high RPM.
> a mid 70s suzuki 750 3 cyl water cooled monster of a bike once 2 stroke with tuned pipes and a frame that moved with power that was scary
That was the improved version? IIRC there was a 500cc 2-stroke 3-cyl air-cooled (sorta) before that. It would WHUP Honda's finest at 2/3rd the price, until it burned-up the middle cylinder, except many of these got embedded in trees or bridge abutments, either due to inexperienced riders or uncertain handling. (Or was that a Kawa?)
SonsOfThunder
Well-known member
Dang, JR's gonna get out the Physics book after me... :grin:
Ok, its a really bad oversimplification... This comes from years of explaining that audio power amplifiers don't "make" power, they're just a "conversion module". That oversimplified explanation is the dumbed-down answer to why a 1000W car amp won't make full power in a Geo with a stock electrical system. :grin:
Back when I did Tech support, I had to forget all that college physics stuff in order to have some kind of understanding with the installers I had on the other end of the phone. i tend to completely gloss over terms like "charge" and "EM field". Crap, i can't even remember the difference between a B-field and H-field vector. And I promise that i didn't take drugs in college. Maybe I should have...
Sorry to derail the thread...
Peace!
Ok, its a really bad oversimplification... This comes from years of explaining that audio power amplifiers don't "make" power, they're just a "conversion module". That oversimplified explanation is the dumbed-down answer to why a 1000W car amp won't make full power in a Geo with a stock electrical system. :grin:
Back when I did Tech support, I had to forget all that college physics stuff in order to have some kind of understanding with the installers I had on the other end of the phone. i tend to completely gloss over terms like "charge" and "EM field". Crap, i can't even remember the difference between a B-field and H-field vector. And I promise that i didn't take drugs in college. Maybe I should have...
Sorry to derail the thread...
Peace!
I think that 3 cylinder 500 was a Kaw and a scary ride.. I remember a 90 something pound cook back when I was in the army had one and it was a blue blur. Typical 2-stroke "that's not a real bike" jive, but scary fast. Quickest thing around. Two-strokes are ugly to look at or listen to, but fun to drive :grin: (need an emoticon with bugs in it's teeth).
JR
JR
