What the **** is this ?

[rrs]

Now, if you copy an equipment case and put a copyrighted logo on it that is different. And if the person specifically asks you not to do it is very different. In such case I believe the person has the right to be "angry".

See this is where I think we are (as a whole) being a little naive.

Whilst some here are concerned with not putting a manufacturers name on the front case in the commercial world we are still copying the identity of the product. If we stick with the example of the GSSL compressor we have the same ratio values, release and attack times and basic layout of the design is identical. So aesthetically it is a copy whether on not the SSL logo is added to the front.

There are company's suing over the shade of blue used on a candy wrapper here in Australia so I feel we are much closer to the line than what we think.

The next clear step I feel is if a deliberate forgery is made to sell for commercial gain.
I honestly feel Tat hasn't gone that far at least not visibly on this forum. The Ed Anderson example may need some explaining but If cases have been made by request or under a misunderstanding I think he may deserve the benefit of doubt at least if they are for private use.

So to go as far as make a 1176,SSL or API clone in design and rack it up with the same or similar layout but omit the logo to make some people feel morally comfortable does not make sence to me. Especially when products are being sold here to aid the originality of the aesthetic design yet attract little or no scrutiny.

I guess we all have out different outlooks on this and do feel it best they all be respected and not judged. If a serious infringement is made where the Illegality comes to issue I am sure the forums leaders will deal with it appropriately when notified.

 

[diyfanatic]

here my big mouth 2 cents!  :

first it make me sad what happens recently on the board.
all these guys commin and asking for someone to build them a ssl, a 1176..etc...

I'm noob but less than one year ago when I first discovered this board and now I have at least 10 pcb projects to make so I'm good for the next 3 years.
But I'll be very sad if all come to end...I'm workin in a not interesting job to make a living since I can't from the music (not enough) so I'm here everyday to read, to learn and to laugh (since some of you ar sooo crazy).

I'm workin on 3 projects right now and only bought one case for the 1176 from Tat and made my own for the others.
I've been really suprised to see the name of Urei and Univer$al audio on it.

but the point is, for the 1176, most of people want it to look like the original and that's why we bought part from Mike of HairballAudio.
real looking knob and stuff.

For this kind of project, I think it's ok cause these design at least 30 years know...I don't think we're doing something bad (Urei logo not for the UA).
If we stop all the "clones" project, no more 1176, La2a, GSSL, SSL9K, D-LA2A, API, Fairchild, even the green pre...etc..So what's left?

I agreed about the re-selling work of someone else...not nice...especially when he asked to not make it public.
BTW, I've downloaded a longtime ago all the doc about the vari-mu on That website.

I think you really should put a limit to some order...

ok I hope it's not too confused...(scuse my french)...

 

[Viitalahde]

What's so special in clones anyway?

Plenty of good stuff around. Even better than cloning anything real. Forssell Opto Compressor, NYD-EQ, Analag's designs, Pico Compressor.. Learn a little about tubes and it's not that hard to cook something up yourself.

 

[Freddy G]

What's so special in clones anyway?

Plenty of good stuff around. Even better than cloning anything real. Forssell Opto Compressor, NYD-EQ, Analag's designs, Pico Compressor.. Learn a little about tubes and it's not that hard to cook something up yourself.

NYD-EQ ???? Where's that? ???

 

[emrr]

NewYorkDave pulled most of his designs down, after many various actions that he felt went against his stated wishes.  I know he sent me a handful of private design ideas that were really cool, but he didn't want distributed.  So I honor that request; others didn't.  I think that's part of why we don't see him so much anymore, and it's a shame. 

I know this bit of related hot water; I re-racked a small run of real Quad Eight modules and put the Quad Eight logo on the panel along with my custom equipment logo.  Quad Eight came after me for doing so.  Not even a clone. 

 

[MikoKensington]

Doug, do you mean Ken came after you?  That's like putting a '65 Mustang back together and Ford saying "please don't put that pony emblem on there, that's our trademark". 

 

[sahib]

This issue crops up every so often and in the last one before this you'll probably remember that I said that we were at the understanding and mercy of the companies whose products are cloned. Therefore I find it completely in their right for Quad to come after you.

 

[MikoKensington]

How so?  He racked vintage Quad Eight modules.  He didn't make clones.  They're real! 

 

[sahib]

Does not matter. You can not use a product to create another one without the consent of the manufacturer.

Say, you buy an off-the-shelf power supply or a transformer. It is clear that these are intended to be used as part of another product. But taking modules which were originally a part of an equipment and then racking them creates a particular product and the manufacturer of the modules can object to that. Simply purchasing an equipment does not give you the right to turn it into something than what is originally intended for.

I have been looking for this particular court case that my lawyer sent to me few years back but unfortunately I can not find it. It is precisely this issue. One company buys a gearbox, modifies it and sells it as part of their product range. The original manufacturer of the gearbox objects and wins the case.


Putting their logo on that equipment implies that it is manufactured by that company. You have no right to use their logo on anything without their consent.

 

[olafmatt]

BTW, those pics are still on his server, kubi. He is obviously not afraid of any consequences by copyright or other lawsuits.

Of course the pics are still there. When he was initially asked to remove them from his server he just renamed the directory (and said he DID remove them). So even if the links wouldn't work anymore you could just use google to find the pics again.

Olaf

 

[Biasrocks]

I know this bit of related hot water; I re-racked a small run of real Quad Eight modules and put the Quad Eight logo on the panel along with my custom equipment logo.  Quad Eight came after me for doing so.  Not even a clone.   

While I understand manufactures not wanting exact clones of their gear out in the public domain and individuals profiting on the backs of someone's uncredited work, is a disturbing phenomenon. The whole industry was founded on a DIY principal, where engineers and studios would build their own consoles and outboard gear. API and Langevin made lot's of profit providing solutions to those studios. That eventually turned into pieces of gear being produced by private companies, always with schematics and detailed information included. Now, there's a veil of secrecy and protectionism applied to the industry where schematics are no longer included with gear and manufacturers hesitant to give them out and companies somewhat aggressively pursuing lowly DIY'ers.

As far as the QE logo being used,  I can understand them not wanting a logo on it, because of potential misunderstandings about the orgin of the project but beyond that, no case. In my view I own that gear, I can do whatever I want with it, especially in light of the fact that were talking 20+ year old modules.

Out of that environment of protectionism, it has led us right back to where the industry started, with DIY. In my book that's not a bad thing. It takes effort and some skill to assemble these boxes and make them work and sound good, that's a good thing. I love the fact that knowledgeable people shared there design ideas and put them into the public domain, it gives us a sense of community and worth. My studio is certainly a better place because of the many people willing to share their time, knowledge and resources.


Please, let's not kill this thing off with greed and irresponsible behavior.

Mark

 

[lofi]

I think the important bit is not how it looks in your studio, but if your intending to sell it on. Theres stuff happening on here that manufactures are going to be very unhappy about, why would Fester have gone under the radar? people are going to profit, people will always look for a quick fix, not seen a positive proof that the accusations are 100% founded.

I have never had bad dealings with Tat, I hope that they are unfounded and misdirected.

Iain

 

[strangeandbouncy]

I personally have never felt the need to make my stuff "look" like anything. All my bits and pieces are lashed into old recycled cases, or very home-made looking new black cases. I personally find it morally wrong to try to pass off something home-made as the real deal. I wish that someone would make a good looking, functional case for these projects that clearly didn't mimic anyone's logos and liveries. Why not a "Prodigy-Pro" or DIY forum logo? I'm proud of what i have built, and all my clients appreciate the fact I have constructed something. NO-one is impressed with a rip-off.

  When i found this forum, I was delighted to find that everyone who offered boards, etc, did so at cost, plus a small consideration. Certainly no-one was going to get fat off what they were making. Despite having been a visitor for some time, I am far from one of the "Illuminati", and there are many here whose opinions on this matter certainly count for far more than mine, but I find a nasty taste in my mouth over this. It is just not right, morally, and, I suspect. legally.


  Please can we clean ourselves up. dust ourselves down, and get back to why we all came here in the first place? I feel grubby by association . . . .

  Lets police ourselves, before someone else does?



  ANdyP

 

[filterstein]

There are a lot of emotional arguments here; let's not forget that you can not just assume what someone's intentions are and judge them by your own standards.
And picture's on a website do not tell you where they are from or who made them.
It would be difficult to tell if the purple audio panel is the real thing or one cloned by Tat just from a jpeg on his website.
Also, in most countries designs have intellectual property rights on them.
If you clone something for yourself and only make a pcb for a friend you are infringing on that.
Legally that's not different from what happened to the varimu clone and Tat selling them.
Commercial cloning or 'just for a friend' is legally not relevant, it might only change the amount of the fine.
Personally I do not think he is a businessman or even a fraud, but he's clearly not thinking too well.
His latest cases (492 and 1176 blue) had the manufacterer logo on it and in the case of the 1176 it looks like a 1:1 copy from the manufacturer panel.
Since he did not communicate this before taking the order, he's not only risking to alienate his clientele,
but it would not surprise me if he had a visit from some manufacturerers lawyer some day and end up in a lot of shit.

 

[[silent:arts]]

I got a not so inspiring answer from Andrew (Purple Audio) that I should pull of all my Purple MC77 cases from the Prodigy black market http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=18647 so I thought it's the time to visit the incognito forum here 8)

I was thinking to make a close enough design of the MC77 but now I just don't care anymore and I want to CLONE this guys design down to the zero.
Of course I will not market this on the Prodigy forum in public. This is just for a few guys in private area and you guys here. So if any of you want a Purple case or two let me know as I plan to close the batch orders at the end of next week.

The starting design was something like this but I will make a clone version of the MC77 with Purple logo on top in a day or two...

taken from a secret forum where the "most sick guys" have ethics and respect to each others, and even to manufactured products still in production.
glad we are on topic again, which is ethic, stealing and lying imho.

 

[diyfanatic]

dammm!

1) the guy is quite mean! ok you don't want to give a dollar, I will take all you got! 
2) I knew it, a secret forum, I knew it... :-X

 

[ioaudio]

from wiki:
>Many economists have offered theories about how financial crises develop and how they could be prevented. There is little consensus, however, and financial crises are still a regular occurrence around the world.

this place/scene is growing during financial crisis. seems to make some people nervous.

Twice I have given Tat permission to design and build cases for my projects...should I avoid him with my upcoming stuff?

analag

why not form your own opinion?

 

[edanderson]

the thread is gone, but i don't think andrew or i objected to purusha making an 1176 style case with a purple front panel.  the problem was that he wanted to put MC76 or the purple logo on the panel, which is not acceptable.  i guess when he found out that he shouldn't rip off the purple brand publicly (logo and model, not the color) in public, he decided to do it in private instead.

i can understand that some guys who bought the DIY MC76 kit would want a case that reflects what is inside, but if purple wanted DIYers to have cases with the purple logo and model number on them, they would have been packaged in the kit to begin with.  

ed

 

[Gus]

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html

http://www.artisticthreadworks.com/public/611.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement

 

[kazper]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/384445-how-much-do-parts-thermionic-culure-phoenix-cost.html

Hello,

I want to know how much I would have to pay if I
would make a Thermionic Culture Phoenix.
I think I will buy me this compressor but just want
to know how much I could save by DIY.

Schizzo

The timing is priceless!