What the **** is this ?

[kazper]

A poll wouldn't work...as there are far too many users(i suspect) in favour of easy copy.
It's more of a hard-core decision by admins and those here for a long time....say over 1500 posts.

Some of the Heavy hitters here don't post often.... that won't work..

Lot's of stuff offered here has moved off this forum for whatever reason.. Pico compressor, Drip's stuff

I say black market is for someone selling a small amount of things... on individual basis and for group buys.

White/grey market for profit offerings with strictly enforced rule sets.

IE no mfg names or logo's on item's sold, Projects here cannot be mass produced and sold, IE don't build 20 GSSL's and post them for sale (limit 2 of common project type per year).
Except if it's your design and layout or an original design that you offered to the group.
This would allow you to sell something you built for a reasonable profit for your build time.
No build for you threads (headache)
True economics 101, the market will set the price.


So if Analag and Valker want to mass produce poor man's they can go right ahead and sell them in the greymarket if they chose too.
If I want to make 5 of Mnats version D's and sell them for $1500 I can't.
But if I made 3 D's and decided I only needed 2, I could sell the single unit for $1500 provided the market would pay that.
If Igor want's to make 20 of his hybrid 2254's (modified design) he could make them and sell them etc..
Same thing for the LA4A projeect and so on.

Say igor want's to make a dual 990 mic pre layout and offer it as a product only in the greymarket.
Set the number of these that can go through the greymarket so the board does not evolve into a sales only site with no fresh projects.

just my nickel... take it for that.

 

[Igor]

lofi, I feel some of people placed here some comments on my feet, even if they did not minded me.

 

[[silent:arts]]

... Don't see any logic here. You reverse-engineered VK-1...ok

not me

Someone reverse-engineered your pcb's but there was improvement (lack of top layer)...ok
This is supposed to be DIY, than, who needs this top layer!

again, it is neither my PCB, nor my layout.
and the PCB was not reverser engineered, it was just what I call stolen.
getting the Gerber Files with lies.
and the seller even can't give some support to the buyers.
I could easily reverse engineer or copy any PCB you did, and sell them.
you won't like it.
and you can be sure I don't do.

 

[lofi]

lofi, I feel some of people placed here some comments on my feet, even if they did not minded me.

dont think I commented your way Igor, but i will apologise anyway

i'm all sorry'd out now

Iain

 

[Ptownkid]

This conversation is starting to turn a little elitist.... It would seem to me that there's a lot of hypocrisy going around, as some people feel that selling a DIY unit made from someone else's pcb is unethical, but cloning an in-production unit is not.

If you want to be technical, both are unethical, it just so happens that scenario one hits closer to home.

I'd like to ask one question of those of you who are saying that there should be no business here at all...have you ever bought a PCB?

 

[lofi]

In steps Bryan, curve ball from the left - ssstttriiiiikkkke one

 

[Ptownkid]

Sorry, I don't get it, lol. I'm a little tired and worn out from working far too much.

 

[Igor]

Kazper, I aggree with you, btw, you can sell my design 2254c in 1000 qty's for effort,
I don't mind it as long as you bought pcb's from me.
Two things, please do it better than me or never mind my name near this unit, and don't ask for any support thread.
Black pcb's are almost impossible to redraw in simple way, btw

Can't say same for 33609. I sent small pcb qty to Purusha and this will not be available anymore I think,
because even if 33609 is my own pcb design, it is commercially available product.

I don't want my name to be cross-linked to asshands and "commercial diy".

 

[Winston OBoogie]

...when you are exposed with your pants down to your ankles in a hotel room you are at a cross road. Resign or get the sack.

 

[Igor]

again, it is neither my PCB, nor my layout.
and the PCB was not reverser engineered, it was just what I call stolen.
getting the Gerber Files with lies.
and the seller even can't give some support to the buyers.

My apologies, did not get it.
Man, I cannot believe it anyway.

I could easily reverse engineer or copy any PCB you did, and sell them.
you won't like it.
and you can be sure I don't do

Ahem...not as easy, it is black dual-sided...anyway, for me it easier to draw from scratch than reverse. Not worth time.
Man, if you can proove the files really were stolen and sold... I am in deep shock.

 

[kazper]

... Don't see any logic here. You reverse-engineered VK-1...ok

not me

Someone reverse-engineered your pcb's but there was improvement (lack of top layer)...ok
This is supposed to be DIY, than, who needs this top layer!

again, it is neither my PCB, nor my layout.
and the PCB was not reverser engineered, it was just what I call stolen.
getting the Gerber Files with lies.
and the seller even can't give some support to the buyers.
I could easily reverse engineer or copy any PCB you did, and sell them.
you won't like it.
and you can be sure I don't do.

A lie (also called prevarication), is a type of deception in the form of an untruthful statement, especially with the intention to deceive others, often with the further intention to maintain a secret or reputation, protect someone's feelings or to avoid a punishment. To lie is to state something that one knows to be false or that one has not reasonably ascertained to be true with the intention that it be taken for the truth by oneself or someone else. A liar is a person who is lying, who has previously lied, or who tends by nature to lie repeatedly.
Lying is typically used to refer to deceptions in oral or written communication. Other forms of deception, such as disguises or forgeries, are generally not considered lies, though the underlying intent may be the same. However, even a true statement can be considered a lie if the person making that statement is doing so to deceive. In this situation, it is the intent of being untruthful rather than the truthfulness of the statement itself that is considered.


Volker,

According to your story, you were deceived by the end use of the files your provided. Hence Lied to by definition. I was forward a hush hush copy of a Email myself where Cases and PCB's for the VK-1 project was offered by Tat in the underground. So I understand the situation from your perspective. But when a finished project was posted in the group it was shunned as a member's only by you and the other guys, which opened an opportunity to profit for Tat.

Since I'm not in the club and from the outside looking in, it looks like mistakes were made by a few. The extend of wright and wrong or who is more out of line is not my call as I'm no judge.

This really is no different than what some manufactures feel about some of the stuff we do. We pillage there documentation, put our minds together and then make there crap, sometimes better than they do.

Kaz

 

[doubleroger]

I'd like to ask one question of those of you who are saying that there should be no business here at all...have you ever bought a PCB?

My answer is Yes. I've bought Mnats boards and Gustav's boards. I've been very happy with those. I don't feel like I've been participating in a profit-making experience.

To make it clearer, I have nothing against businesses. You have a webshop, I guess it makes you liable in case your product puts my house on fire, you also provide a little support maybe, and I guess your business is somewhat declared and you play fair to your concurrents.
I'd be glad to buy kits or parts or whatever from you.

I think businesses should not be banned at all, but should be clearly put apart from the rest of the BM. They are already a little bit apart in the stickies, but it is just not a fair market, even between businesses (see this guy who wanted to make custom cases for the TG clone but didn't have a sticky: where is the tread today?).

 

[Igor]

We pillage there documentation, put our minds together and then make there crap, sometimes better than they do.

No. I wery rare seen there clones done better than originals. Other is true.

I think businesses should not be banned at all, but should be clearly put apart from the rest of the BM.

Agree. Separate white market board?

They are already a little bit apart in the stickies, but it is just not a fair market, even between businesses
(see this guy who wanted to make custom cases for the TG clone but didn't have a sticky: where is the tread today?).

Yes, I remember. This guy tried to make 2254c cases as well. I asked him for files to check if all measures OK,
he sent me 300 dpi jpeg Why not, but as long as I give support to 2254c builders, it is good to have cases with exact measures.

Anyway... Let's see where it started. Can you proove Purusha stoled this PCB design?

 

[desol]

This conversation is starting to turn a little elitist.... It would seem to me that there's a lot of hypocrisy going around, as some people feel that selling a DIY unit made from someone else's pcb is unethical, but cloning an in-production unit is not.

If you want to be technical, both are unethical, it just so happens that scenario one hits closer to home.

I'd like to ask one question of those of you who are saying that there should be no business here at all...have you ever bought a PCB?

Yes i have, but i assumed this was in the spirit of the forum and at a minimal profit...ie:GSSL. What i'm talking about is excessive business. I don't know....guidelines i guess?...and i mostly agree with what Kazper stated above.

I think most around here tho, can say they have noticed things lately turning really sales oriented...with larger mass quantities being realized, and imo, this is going to eventually attract attention the forum shouldn't deserve...wouldn't want...i would think?? Some of the things being offered with these 'quantities' seem to also being blurring the lines in terms of copyright.

Yes, i've bought pcb's....but did everything else myself and learned so much in the process. I'd love to learn more about design and pcb etching etc...as i think this is the rewarding and honest approach, when ethically considered.

The spirit of learning, and making some good gear in the light of common day manufacturing and advertising.

 

[Ptownkid]

My answer is Yes. I've bought Mnats boards and Gustav's boards. I've been very happy with those. I don't feel like I've been participating in a profit-making experience.

But that's exactly my point now that this conversation has turned in this direction...Gustav makes boards of OTHER peoples layouts and makes them in his family's pcb fab house...so do we now throw him under the bus because he hardly posts here AND makes a profit.

By the rationale that seems to be floating around in this conversation now, Gustav is the DIY anti-christ, and I am tied with a few others for runner-up.

 

[kazper]

I'm just thinking of how to resolve this issue... without making the forum implode.

I've never sold any of my DIY stuff, traded a bit here and there.

I've seen stuff come out of here that is top notch and in some cases better than some of the products I've been into.  I think that the ban on selling builds has been pushed around before. In general I don't think someone turning out stuff in there garage and selling constantly on the market is going to help the forum. But if someone want's to dump a project midway or after they decide it's not for them, I think based on pictures and conditions it should have some value above parts. Again the market will set the value of the item based on build and pictures. I also don't think that 8 guys competing on small builds based on the Mnats pcb's or whoever is going to be a bad thing. It's like the current state of disrepair ebay is in, where your single listing is just a speck in the cloud of crap from resellers. This keeps the common made projects here able to be sold by the general group.

In the case of one off's or production test runs then it's fair to sell them out, no different that Roger did with some of the Pico stuff. But to make production in the garage for sale on the market again would hurt the forum. It could potently limit projects from evolving to the group and we want to avoid that.

I also like the storefront's that are taken off forum. I'm sure there is a little profit to make it worth there time as there should be, most things seem reasonable and demand and cost set's the price. Without this forum and stuff offered through here most of those shops would simply disappear from lack of sales period.

I just think it's time for us to rethink the forum layout and rules and adjust if the feel of the need is here. Competition is good too, as we have quite the monopoly going here... 

One last thing, let's not take this to heart and get offended. I'm certainly not trying to step on anyones toes, chose sides etc..  Let's define the rules, make changes and get on with things. We all have burnt to much time on here for this.

 

[kazper]

But that's exactly my point now that this conversation has turned in this direction...Gustav makes boards of OTHER peoples layouts and makes them in his family's pcb fab house...so do we now throw him under the bus because he hardly posts here AND makes a profit.

By the rationale that seems to be floating around in this conversation now, Gustav is the DIY anti-christ, and I am tied with a few others for runner-up.

Hurry... Get a Bible, holy water and some solder...


Ptown,

My take on it would be like this...

Black Market
Long going sales (PCB & Cases)
So Drip could sell some of his $150 pcb's there.... Uncle Fester... etc..
Storefront Sticky's
Finished projects for profit..I'm selling my whatever that I built for whatever
etc..

Grey market
Groupbuys (as have been)
Individuals selling part's, uncompleted projects, projects for cost.
Etc..

 

[Ptownkid]

I wasn't defending purusha's actions Kubi, I was responding to those that feel there should be no selling here at all. The post I quoted had the misconception that the boards that come from Gustav are not for profit.

I know he got permission, and I have no issue with his practice at all, it was just an easy example as the poster had mentioned his name.

 

[[silent:arts]]

... Anyway... Let's see where it started. Can you proove Purusha stoled this PCB design?

good point, and yes, I can.

I know this PCB design (I build two units for myself),
I know the PCB designer,
I know the PCBs Purusha sold - we can even see it on his homepage.

what do you need more as far as I already posted? ???

 

[Igor]

Yap. Now got it. Looks absolute crap. Took some time to understand.
Closing notification on this topic, and my apologises, as I seen the things in different view.